New "Dead Levels"

[Crothian]

Except that it was a problem for some classes. Blame PrC or class design all you want, Cleric, Wizard, and Sorceror were pointless to stay in past 5th level, unless you REALLY wanted turn undead or REALLY wanted improved familiars.

Well, it is bad class design with the core classes and the prestige classes. That's part of what bad class design is.

Introducing it is fine, but the way they do it and define it I have issues with. If they truly want to fix then all the classes need to be reworked. Adding abilities to the cleric, arguable the most powerful core class, with out balancing it is poor class design again.

And nothin against you, Crothian, just that your post closest match what I wanted to rebutt

No worries, this is just a discussion I really have nothing invested in the thread.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Except that it was a problem for some classes. Blame PrC or class design all you want, Cleric, Wizard, and Sorceror were pointless to stay in past 5th level, unless you REALLY wanted turn undead or REALLY wanted improved familiars.

Depends on what expansions you use. Core-only, most PrCs have opportunity costs in the form of feat prerequisites, and there are no pure-sorcerer PrCs. Feats are precious. The fact that you'd rather take Spell Focus (Transmutation) than Skill Focus (Knowledge-Arcana) is a good reason to stick with wizard instead of going Loremaster...

I'm with those who think that even getting +1 BAB, a HD, and a couple of skill points is NOT a "dead level." But I came to 3e from BECM.

 

[Klaus]

People were having fun before this too. It is sad that people feel they need almost worthless little abilities every level to have fun.

Yes, the classes were "FUN" before.

It's only that now it's "FUN! NOW WITH EXTRA FLAVOR!"

 

[MerricB]

I love the idea of adding little abilities to kill dead levels.

However, the way they are done in this article really make them feel superfluous. Sure, you get extra bonuses... but do you really care?

This is something that needs to be considered during the creation of the entire class, not done as an afterthought.

Cheers!

 

[fineousdfd119]

all you have to do to fix all of this is to play AD&D as it was meant to be ...... before 2nd edition started to ruin it

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

all you have to do to fix all of this is to play AD&D as it was meant to be ...... before 2nd edition started to ruin it

Yes, because there weren't dead levels then. Oh, wait, there were.

 

[Piratecat]

Yes, because there weren't dead levels then. Oh, wait, there were.

Moreso than now, certainly, unless you were a monk.

Dr. Rictus promotes the "cookie" theory of multiclassing, and I agree with it. Every time you level, you want at least one cookie. An increase in BAB is a cookie; so is a special ability, or a feat, or an increase in saving throws, or a new spell level, or additional sneak attack damage. It's most fun to plan out your multiclassing schedule so that dead levels occur on levels when you'd normally gain a feat; that way you still have a cookie!

This article series basically gives you small additional cookies to consider. I see that as a good thing.

 

[awayfarer]

Is it lame that the one thing which really caught my eye is the hexblades (eventual) infinite prestidigitation?

 

[xrpsuzi]

This article series basically gives you small additional cookies to consider. I see that as a good thing.

I agree. It's a shift in mental space that will make it potentially easier for some players to have more fun.

For adult swim/Metalocalypse fans, it reminds me of the banana stickers.

Yeah, it's not required for fun, but if it results in more fun had by more players, I'm glad WotC is offering options in that direction.

-Suzi

 

[2WS-Steve]

I'm in favor of the new change.

For me, just seeing a couple numbers go up is rather tedious -- even moreso when I'm thinking, at the back of my mind, that the opponents' numbers are also going up, so it's kind of like nothing happened at all.

It's much more interesting being able to pick from a small list of (interesting) feats or abilities --having some new thing for my character to do. Good feats, even fairly basic ones like Mobility or Cleave, change the way I make decisions. Maybe I wade into the middle of a mob of lower powered monsters more often, or be the guy who slips past the front line to strike at the wizards.

Boring minors like +1 to a skill check I have to admit aren't really an improvement (and I also have to admit that I've written too many boring abilities too, but hope that the interesting ones made up a little).

Also, I'm sympathetic to the idea that a new spell level already gives you an interesting new ability. However, I do think that it's good to have some flexibility when designing spellcasting prestige classes that doesn't require sacrificing caster levels, because that's just too painful for most players and that means that players of spellcasters don't have as much opportunity to customize their characters.

One variant solution if you're worried about power level, is to reduce the experience gain by about 20-30%, so the levels come less frequently but carry more options.