New "Dead Levels"

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I fail to see how a level which gains a new spell level is a dead level. Never mind increased HD, BAB, saves, spells known/per day, skill points ... "Dead level" sounds like powergamer whining, to me.

Just saying.

Congratulations on both misunderstanding the problem and insulting folks along the way.

It's not a powergamer issue, it's that it's less interesting to level when all you get is +1 BAB and a pitiful handful of skill points.

Especially given how many people slow advancement down, is it really whining to want leveling up to feel meaningful? Especially as, has been noted, gaining BAB at the same time as the enemies gain AC essentially amounts to player characters running in place on those levels.

Now, if you whip through the levels, it's less of an issue, but plenty of folks do not. A year into my Midwood campaign, about three-quarters of the players have just hit level three. You'll pardon me for thinking that each level should feel fun and meaningful when they get there.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Here is the part I don't understand about the whole "dead levels" thing.

Ostensibly, these extra abilities are needed to make the base classes more attractive against the option of prestige classes - but I don't see how these VERY minor powers compete with all the stuff some prestige classes get you.

I think if you are going to make the argument vis a vis prestige classes and dead levels, it is prestige classes that need to be changed, not the base classes.

Well, these are meant to be a Band-Aid not the wholesale retuning of classes that's arguably needed.

"Well, at least I get something" is what they're going for here.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I think you could have an issue of "expectation creep" with this "dead levels" concept.
BECM: most levels give NO improvement to attack rolls or saving throws, and skill points don't exist (though thief skills do improve every level). Ability scores don't improve.
2e: fighter attack rolls improve every level, as do thief skills, but saving throws and nonweapon proficencies (skills) only improve every 2-5 levels. Ability scores don't improve.
3e: attack rolls improve every level for a fighter, thief skills improve every level, saving throws improve for 2 out of every 3 levels, ability scores improve for 1 out of every 4 levels, feats are acquired for 1 out of every 3 levels (2.5 per 3 for a fighter), and class special abilities are more common. For a fighter, over 12 levels, there are 3 levels where no feats or saving throw bonuses are gained, but one of these (11) grants an additional attack, and the other two (5 and 7) bracket a super-level where nearly everything improves and many more feats become available.

Is there some point at which players will say "HD, skill points, saving throw bonuses, an ability point, and another feat are a dead level"?

 

[Corsair]

Is there some point at which players will say "HD, skill points, saving throw bonuses, an ability point, and another feat are a dead level"?

If you cut off the feat part, I would yes, and that is right now. As people said before, more HD, skill points, saving throw bonuses and BAB aren't that exciting at a level when monster attacks will be doing more damage with higher DCs, and skill DCs (especially for the rogues) will be getting harder. Ability points fall under the same umbrella. Increasing your dex by 1 isn't that exciting if the REF saves and monster attacks are going up too.

Feats (at least feats other than skill focus, weapon focus, weapon specialization and the like) aren't dead because they generally offer something new. Power attack, the improved _______ combat feats and the like give you new combat options. Metamagic gives the casters improved casting options. Divine feats give the clerics and paladins more options.

It is those play options that make gaining a new level more interesting.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

As people said before, more HD, skill points, saving throw bonuses and BAB aren't that exciting at a level when monster attacks will be doing more damage with higher DCs, and skill DCs (especially for the rogues) will be getting harder.

See, this is what I don't get. I always imagine a static world, where the monsters and traps are what they are independent of PC abilities, and going up levels means you can take on the tougher things and solve more difficult problems. Level 1: your party probably cannot defeat the minotaur in Keep on the Borderlands, and it will kill you if you try. Level 4: you probably can. Level 1: rogue cannot find a Fire Trap even by taking 20. Level 4: they can. So by going up levels, you're not running in place, you're making real progress. I do understand your point about having options, but maybe I'm not fully getting it.

Let's say I have a 1st-level human fighter with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm (so he has all the options from the start). At level 2, 3, and 4 he takes the "incremental" feats Weapon Focus, Improved Toughness, and Weapon Specialization. He's still doing the same thing -- tripping, disarming, and smashing with his flail -- but now he's considerably stronger (his overhead press increased by 30 lb) and he can defeat a 9'-tall 600-lb giant in single combat. That's just astounding. When unarmored, he can routinely climb a typical dungeon wall (+10 Climb check) and make a 20' long jump. He can likely take a Lightning Bolt to the chest (10d6, failed save) and keep fighting. These are all things that he couldn't do as a 1st-level character, he's AMAZINGLY more competent, but he has only had incremental improvements to his existing abilities. The feeling of playing the character just changes so much that I can't see it as just a few mechanical improvements.

Granted, it's not the same when you compare level 13 to level 12, but even so, when you roll exactly what you need to hit, or when you are down to single-digit HP, you're thankful for gaining that last level.

 

[Alzrius]

I think that differentiating your character from other characters is part of it. Every character gains more feats, skill points, hit dice, etc. over time. In that case, it doesn't matter what sort of character you play. Adding in these new benefits (which are crunch, true, but to such a small degree that they're more fluff than anything else) helps distinguish your character from others just a little more. Otherwise you might as well be playing with the generic classes.

It's not the idea of getting something that's being catered to, here. It's the idea of getting something special.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

As the writer of the articles in question, let me add this much...

The first article was generally received by people as a "band-aid" for the perceived deficiencies of the core classes. That was never my intention. In this latest article, I wanted to make that point abundantly clear.

Dead levels abilities are meant to be flavorful cookies and little else. Indeed, "cookies" is a very good word for them. They were created to be thematic for each class and possibly encourage role-playing. They were designed to differentiate each class a little more, but with an exceedingly minor special ability. That said, the power level of these exceedingly minor abilities had to be even more inconsequential in the case of spellcasting classes that gain new spells every level. All of this is mentioned in the article introduction, but perhaps bears repeating.

Dead level abilities are little bit of extra fun and they are entirely optional. If you don't want to use them as a dungeon master, then pretend like they don't exist. If you are good dungeon master, your players will respect that. If you don't want to use dead level abilities as a player in a game where they are permitted, then simply don't activate them. No harm done. If you do like the material as written, however, then please use dead level abilities to your heart's content. I promise you all, it's not a complicated decision no matter where you stand.

Kolja

 

[Joker]

Hey, look at that: Favored Souls can choose if they want Kno(Religion) or Kno(Arcana) as class skill.

Ain't that some sh..?

 

[Aaron L]

I really like them. Little non-combat extras that don't add to the character's power, but add a nice it of flavor.

To the people saying that this is munchkin "power ups" and the like: did you even read the article? The benefits are things like gaining bonuses to diplomacy and knowledge rolls. Hardly powergaming material.


It's a very nice little flavor addition, and I like it a lot.

 

[dcas]

Actually, the vast array of dead levels in 1st and 2nd edition are a big reason why I stopped running D&D -- then came back in 3rd edition.

There are tons of "dead levels" in OD&D and OAD&D, no doubt. But that gives a player the freedom to define his character by something other than his abilities and skills. For example, when one reaches name level (after which "dead levels" are pretty common, especially for fighters), one can establish a stronghold, raise an army, etc.

JMHO.