New "Dead Levels"

[Black_Swan]

Get rid of levels and allow players to buy what they want and make any type of character they want. There aren't any dead levels if level based experience is removed.

Why allow a designer to tell you what your character should be and when they should get a cookie? I say cookies for everyone! Let's eat what we want and discard the rest.

BtN..for the win.

 

[Remathilis]

What PrCs do sorcerers typically take?

Well, since you asked...

ftr1/sorc6/eldrich knight10/Arcmage3 is the most common I've seen. They lose two caster levels, but make up for the rest in better hp/bab. Most don't even really invoke their fighter level that much, cept in the ability to wield a sword/bow. I guess they are technically a fighter/mage, but they play alot like a regular sorc, only hitting more often with touch spells and not rolling triangles for hp.

Arcmage form DMG
Incantarix (Players Guide to Faerun)
Fatespinner, Elemental Savant, and Wild Mage from Complete Arcane
Wild Soul, Nightmare Spinner, and Holy Scourge from Complete Mage
Divine Oracle from Complete Divine
Pact-Bound Adept (Dragon Magic)
Frost Mage (Frostburn)
Dracolexi and Dragonheart Mage (both Races of the Dragon)
Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I guess that the "problem" is just perception. An earlier poster said there is no reason to take levels after 5th in any base class, why, because you don't get phenomenal cosmic power? That's powergaming in my book.

Except that he didn't say that.

Honestly, is anyone willing to discuss this issue without making up what the other people are saying and then insulting them for it?

 

[Reynard]

Get rid of levels and allow players to buy what they want and make any type of character they want. There aren't any dead levels if level based experience is removed.

Having played a fair number of different RPGs, some level-based and some not, come class based and some not, it is my assessment that the reason class & level systems persist is because they are just better, from a game perspective, than freeform XP advancement. People complain about characters -- whether too powerful or too weak -- in class & level system. They should see what happens in, frex, HERO after 6 months of point-by-point advancement. The problems are 10 times worse and the benefits are marginal. In my experience, even the most concept-oriented player ends up spending points on spot defense and/or tangential abilities. The focus of classes combined with the nuggets of levels provides a consistent, fun advancement scheme that has survived the test of time.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I fail to see how a level which gains a new spell level is a dead level. Never mind increased HD, BAB, saves, spells known/per day, skill points ... "Dead level" sounds like powergamer whining, to me.

Just saying.

It kind of seems that way to me as well.

Those of you who like it more power to you.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Well, since you asked...
Arcmage form DMG
Fatespinner, Elemental Savant, and Wild Mage from Complete Arcane
Divine Oracle from Complete Divine

These are the only ones from books I have, so the only ones I can comment on.
The feat and skill opportunity costs for Archmage are pretty hefty (especially if you want to max Concentration and UMD), and a sorcerer can't get into the class until level 15.

Fatespinner and Elemental Savant DO have a problem, as I noted. Wild Mage is especially problematic if you allow the Practiced Spellcaster cheese and if you allow Student of Chaos to work with a Deck of Many Things.

Divine Oracle isn't available to a sorc until level 14 (need 8 ranks of a cross-class skill) and requires an utterly useless feat. It's not bad if you can get into it earlier (as a wizard), but its abilities become less useful at high levels. By level 14, a sorc has Limited Wish to duplicate most spells he needs, and can likely obtain or make a Ring of Evasion.

The F/S/EK combo looks like fun to play, and will be more durable but not as powerful as a straight sorcerer. Always a full spell level behind. Looks like a perfectly valid choice but not so good as to be a no-brainer for every sorcerer.

Feat costs are a really significant barrier to PrCs. Look at something like Sudden Quicken. You will never get that unless you devote all of your feat choices to it, and that means no PrCs (other than Fatespinner).

 

[WhatGravitas]

It kind of seems that way to me as well.

I'm curious - what would you think of it, if the entire game was designed with the idea of avoiding dead levels... like fighters get a feat every level, but with less powerful feat to even out everything to the same power level as before?

 

[Brother MacLaren]

One other thought on "dead levels" for casters:
Back when Polymorph existed, every level *did* give wizards and sorcerers something new -- a new set of forms to use for themselves or allies, often considerably better than the previous forms. And even when not flat-out better, they offered versatility and situational abilities (e.g. the Digester's acid attacks or Umber Hulk's tunneling). 8? Digester, Dire Lion, Umber Hulk. 9? Behir, Bulette, Chimera, Rhino, Tendriculos. 10? Ettin, Gray Render, Black Pudding, Roper. 11? Chuul, Elephant, Giant Constrictor snake. 12? Hill Giant, Dire Bear. And that's just the MM.

Not to mention new and improved dragon forms at every level.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Except that he didn't say that.

Honestly, is anyone willing to discuss this issue without making up what the other people are saying and then insulting them for it?

WD, that's taken out of context, read the rest of the quote, please.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'm curious - what would you think of it, if the entire game was designed with the idea of avoiding dead levels... like fighters get a feat every level, but with less powerful feat to even out everything to the same power level as before?

I guess its just a reaction since I'm used to some levels being just HP and BAB, saves, etc. and some having more substantial improvements. Never seemed like a problem with me. Seems to be more powerups. I don't think every class needs special powers at every level to be fun to play. Just my opinion.

I don't really mind though since I'll be running a core only game and this stuff won't be in the game, and nobody has to use optional rules anyway. If people like them that's great.