New "Dead Levels"

[Cam Banks]

One way to address the perception of spellcasting improvements as being something shiny to pick up at a given level is to explicitly state this in the level progression chart. Wizards would have the following, for instance:

1st 1st-level spells
3rd 2nd-level spells
5th 3rd-level spells
... and so on. This highlights the difference between wizards and sorcerers more clearly than just looking at their spell table, and it also leads to a possible revision of how spellcaster advancement from PrCs might work. What if the max spell level was based on the level in the primary caster unless the PrC explicitly raised it? A wizard 5/prestige mage 10 would have a caster level of 15, but would only have access to 3rd level spells. Do you think this would unfairly nuke the prestige classes?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[jmucchiello]

I don't have a problem with the concept of the article. Everyone loves a cookie. I have a problem with trying to justify these cookies with this argument (and I'm not singling out WD):

Well, these are meant to be a Band-Aid not the wholesale retuning of classes that's arguably needed.

"Well, at least I get something" is what they're going for here.

Please, someone, anyone tell me you have ever seen someone respond to "you go up a level" with disappointment.*** "Geez, I leveled again? No, thanks, I'll stay 5th level. 6th level would be boring."

Restructuring the classes and PrCs is the answer. Not something they can do in 3rd edition. Perhaps a new edition can address this.

*** In the normal course of play. Level draining combined with not getting a restoration in time could cause disappointment I suppose. But that's an edge case and not really specific to class design.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I guess its just a reaction since I'm used to some levels being just HP and BAB, saves, etc. and some having more substantial improvements. Never seemed like a problem with me. Seems to be more powerups. I don't think every class needs special powers at every level to be fun to play. Just my opinion.

Well, that's okay - in the current design paradigm, it could be a real power-up (however, the article gives good stuff, that doesn't power-up). Personally, as said above, I'd like to see less dead levels in class, because it would promote slower levelling.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

WD, that's taken out of context, read the rest of the quote, please.

How about you give others the same respect, then?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Please, someone, anyone tell me you have ever seen someone respond to "you go up a level" with disappointment.*** "Geez, I leveled again? No, thanks, I'll stay 5th level. 6th level would be boring."

I've seen a lot of people regret sticking with a class because they didn't get a cookie, while their peers got something, even if it was a minor new toy.

 

[Slaved]

Please, someone, anyone tell me you have ever seen someone respond to "you go up a level" with disappointment.*** "Geez, I leveled again? No, thanks, I'll stay 5th level. 6th level would be boring."

I am actually having a problem like this with my current character.

Next level I get almost nothing but I will need to fight tougher opponents to get the same amount of experience. In essence going up a level in this case will actually be a penalty overall.

I am seriously considering just not going up a level and trying to convince the dm to use the bonus experience point rules in the dmg so that I can ride through this level of nothing and come out on the other side to a level that is closer to actually doing something that will help me against the higher challenge rating opponents.

I would have liked a different structure where there is actually a decent reason to get each level but unfortunately the characters path is likely to go through several points where going up a level would actually be a bad move.

 

[Umbran]

How about you give others the same respect, then?

How about everybody show a little more respect, and chill out a bit on the direct personal confrontation. We have a "report a post" feature for problems. There's no need to get accusatory, or in another poster's face.

Typically, these things are percieved slights, rather than intended ones. As such, confrontation tends to escalate problems, rather than help resolve issues and enhance understanding.

 

[sjmiller]

Next level I get almost nothing but I will need to fight tougher opponents to get the same amount of experience. In essence going up a level in this case will actually be a penalty overall.

Could you explain to this thick-headed individual (me, in case there's any doubt) how going up a level is ever a penalty? Even if you are going up a so-called "dead level" you still increase hit points; you gain at least 2 skill points; and most likely either your base attack bonus or your saving throws improve. How is this a penalty? I really just don't understand.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I am actually having a problem like this with my current character.

Next level I get almost nothing but I will need to fight tougher opponents to get the same amount of experience. In essence going up a level in this case will actually be a penalty overall.

I am seriously considering just not going up a level and trying to convince the dm to use the bonus experience point rules in the dmg so that I can ride through this level of nothing and come out on the other side to a level that is closer to actually doing something that will help me against the higher challenge rating opponents.

I would have liked a different structure where there is actually a decent reason to get each level but unfortunately the characters path is likely to go through several points where going up a level would actually be a bad move.

What class is it and how can an improvement in HP at least not be worth it? I don't see many opponents that are vastly more powerful from say CR5 to CR6.

 

[Slaved]

I do not have much for con so the amount of hit points going up will be about 2 with the dm's system, I will not get a point of base attack bonus, I will get a single extra slot of casting but my spell selection is small and all utility spells that the party already has plenty of, the skill points will be ok but I am already past synergy bonuses so the extra +1 will barelly be noticeable especially since most of the important checks I currently beat on a take 10 already anyway, and I will get one point on my reflex save.

That is essentially it.

Opponents/challenges going up by one point of Challenge Rating get a little harder but I have gained essentially nothing offensive, defensive, or utility. Defeating the same level of challenges as before gives less experience even though they are basically just as hard as they were before I leveled.

So this means that I get less experience or have to overcome harder challenges to get the same amount but I have gained nothing to actually help me deal with harder challenges.