New GSL Announcement

[WhatGravitas]

Huh. I was about to post to say, "There's no way that WotC could/would draft a GSL that prevents a company from maintaining separate OGL and GSL lines," but Rouse's decision to stop commenting suggests things are much murkier than one might otherwise think.

Weird.

Well, I guess that's also due to the fact that he's "Senior Brand Manager", not a lawyer. Sure, he talks here, but without the exact license in his hands it's hard to say something - and perhaps even stupid, if he gets something wrong.

Since he's interpreted as spokesman for his company right now, it would be stupid to say anything too clear and precise, without consulting the full license (and perhaps his head honchos) right now.

Cheers, LT.

 

[BryonD]

Here is the thing though. WotC owns the OGL and they own d20. Its theirs to do with what they will.

Wrong. They own D20. The OGL is Open. They absolutely may not do what they will with the OGL.

But more importantly, any publisher can still use the OGL. Its out there forever. They can keep publishing under it or under the GSL. There is no trojan horse because the terms are right here and up front. If you are a publisher, you pick which one you want to use. Or they can use neither and make their own game.

You are not getting the point.
If Green Ronin abandons True20 to support 4E, that is BAD.
If Green Ronin decides they can not support 4E because they need to support True20, that is BAD.

Which brings up another interesting point. I don't see an OGL for any other company. Out of ALL RPGs companies, none have been as generous with their engine as WotC. NONE. Name one.

I have praised them greatly from what they did, long ago with a very different cast of characters. None of that buys a license to be harmful now.

Heck even companies like Green Ronin and Paizo, who built their entire business off WotC's game design don't reciprocate to open gaming or give to it the way WotC has. Is Pathfinder going to be open? Is it going to be so open that I can make my own Pathfinder SRD website so my players can play Pathfinder without having to buy the books? Or even republish a "pocket" Pathfinder? No?

Yeah, thats what I thought.

Actually, in quite a few case YES. Again, you are simply very ill informed.

This whole thread infuriates me because I see WotC held to an impossible standard that no other company is held to. And this is despite the fact they have been the more supportive of open gaming than any other company.

Keys words: "have been". Name one other company that has tried to pressure other companies into abandoning the OGL? Can you? No?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

The idea of an impossible standard is a farce. The standard of "don't try to squash what we already have" is far far far from impossible. To the contrary, it shouldn't even be a consideration.

 

[Belen]

Yeah, call me cynical, but if one of the self-professed architects of the license ("Linae and I (and a lot of other people at WOTC) worked our butts off to get the GSLs done.") can't clearly say that the restriction is on a per-product rather than a company-wide basis....

Well, I'd say that's fairly ominous.

Agreed. Most likely, they are hoping things will die down before they start giving out concrete info. I am glad that they decided to allow 4e to be played with by others, but the poison pill is a huge negative, and it outweighs the positive for me.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Which brings up another interesting point. I don't see an OGL for any other company. Out of ALL RPGs companies, none have been as generous with their engine as WotC. NONE. Name one.

Every company who published OGL derivative works has published a completely open engine.

ALL OF THEM.

You want a good list? Read the latest Section 15 declarations for True20. Starting with the d20 SRD, True20 borrows from nearly every other d20 game published in the history of the OGL. Every "engine" they borrow from is Open, all the way down to True20 at the end of the line, which is also Open.

You could hardly find a better living declaration of the OGL's success than that S15.

This post is staggeringly ignorant of what the OGL is. I'm sorry. I don't mean that to sound impolite.

EDIT:

Green Ronin is about to Open up their True20 license in May so that ANY Publisher can use their logo for free and create authorized products. They've BEEN doing this with Mutants and Masterminds for years.

If that's not reciprocating, then I don't know what is.

NO. NO. Even this is imprecise. It diminishes what Green Ronin is doing.

True20 has ALWAYS been Open. What Green Ronin is doing now is above and beyond even that:

They are allowing other companies to use their Trademark.

They are following in the example set by WotC.

 

[Lizard]

Which brings up another interesting point. I don't see an OGL for any other company. Out of ALL RPGs companies, none have been as generous with their engine as WotC. NONE. Name one.

The following systems have been released under the Open Games License:
ACTION
FUDGE
Spirit Of The Century
Runequest
Traveller
Tri-Stat DX
BESM D20
True 20

And this doesn't count things like Spycraft, Sidewinder, and many other complete SRd-based games with MOUNTAINS of original material they didn't have to declare as OGC -- but they did.

And remember, all material released under the open game license is equal. There's no system walls. Any material for any system released under the OGL can be used with any other OGL material, freely and without limit or restriction, except, of course, the terms of the OGL itself.

To say you're off-base in your accusation is a bit light. You're out of stadium, past the parking lot, and riding the F-Train home to Brooklyn.

Heck even companies like Green Ronin and Paizo, who built their entire business off WotC's game design don't reciprocate to open gaming or give to it the way WotC has. Is Pathfinder going to be open? Is it going to be so open that I can make my own Pathfinder SRD website so my players can play Pathfinder without having to buy the books? Or even republish a "pocket" Pathfinder? No?

Yes. Because it's based on the SRD, it can't NOT be. That's the beauty of the OGL -- it's viral.

I'm aware I am coming close to skirting board rules here, but I have to ask: Do you have ANY idea what the OGL says, what it means, or how much material is covered by it and what you can legally do with that material? Because I think you're mixing up "open gaming content" and "easy online ASCII files", and they're not the same thing at all.

Is White Wolf going to allow me to make a Storyteller website, so I can play the Storyteller system without having to buy the books? Is Green Ronin, going to allow me to make a M&M website that posts their entire game engine? Not likely, even though their entire system is a d20 derivative that wouldn't even exist without the OGL.

All the rules material in M&M, with the exception of the term "Power Points", is OGC. Knock yourself out typing it up and replacing that one mechanic.

This whole thread infuriates me because I see WotC held to an impossible standard that no other company is held to. And this is despite the fact they have been the more supportive of open gaming than any other company.

And you'd be right to be furious, if you were supported by the facts. You're not.

 

[Goobermunch]

Yeah, call me cynical, but if one of the self-professed architects of the license ("Linae and I (and a lot of other people at WOTC) worked our butts off to get the GSLs done.") can't clearly say that the restriction is on a per-product rather than a company-wide basis....

Well, I'd say that's fairly ominous.

Actually, I'd say that's the result of two non-lawyers working out the basic principles of the new license and then needing legal to draft the actual license. Perhaps with a dash of I've read the new license, but don't have it in front of me to refer back to, and a side of needing to make sure my understanding and the lawyers' understandings are the same.

I've done enough contract drafting to know that you often have to check back in with the client about things that seemed clear when you wrote them but now have become murky.

--G

 

[mxyzplk]

And at that point, you can pull the ripcord and bail out of 4e. It's not like you're signing a contract to work for WotC that requires you to promise to never work for anyone else ever again. The license permits you to do some things pursuant to some conditions. If you want to quit being bound by those conditions, you just have to give up on doing the things the license permits you to do.

Yeah, that's real simple for a non-businessperson to say. However, if this were to happen to you, you'd be in a bad position. Let's say you have 50% of your sales in 4e products and 50% in your own game line and then WotC makes this decision. You have backstock, bills, returns, and other financial obligations. It's not even as simple as "oh sure, just decide which 50% of your revenue you want." It's called 'go out of business time.' It's all fun and games to you, but a lot of these companies are, you know, the way many people put food on the table.

Yes everyone - it's true. There is no law that says "as a company, you may not act like a bunghole to your business partners." It's "within their rights" to do whatever. It's "just business decisions" everyone should make. People's careers and livelihoods are not relevant, nor is the state of the overall RPG industry. Oh, I'm happier about this all already.

 

[Belen]

Have you ever read a contract that wasn't murky? We could argue about the word "any" for hours.

There are a lot of semantical arguments being batted around and with out the words in front of me I am just another batter at the plate.

Scott, I appreciate your willingness to post on the weekend, but WOTC seems to have a bad sense of timing here. Why release the info on a Friday? In this past, this tactic has been used to kill bad news.

From a customer standpoint, if a company cannot choose to support 4e and OGL games as the same time, then customers lose. In the past, I have always purchased every book released by WOTC and the third party books were the icing on the cake. The OGL actively encouraged me to try other genres while still staying close to D&D and it meant that I was much more open to games like d20 modern.

I get that you want people to switch to 4e and that this will be the first time in history that D&D will have to compete against itself with active products from an other system, but I think that you guys could have accomplished your goals without forcing so much polarization within the fan community.

In the end, if forced to choose, then I will choose OGL. It offers me a range of games and I still have all my D&D books from 1e, 2e, and 3e. You seem to be making it harder to stick with WOTC from my perspective.

 

[Lizard]

Have you ever read a contract that wasn't murky? We could argue about the word "any" for hours.

There are a lot of semantical arguments being batted around and with out the words in front of me I am just another batter at the plate.

And this is why the public process of developing and refining the OGL and SRD did so much to *build* faith and confidence in WOTC and encourage people to take what was, at the time, a huge legal and financial risk...and why the behind-closed-doors process of developing the GSL has bred rumormongering, mistrust, and distortion.

I fully and completely understand why WOTC would want to keep the mechanics, rules, IP, and so forth of 4e under wraps until release and why you want total control over how 4e is presented, marketed, and hyped. That's a no-brainer. I do not understand, and still do not understand, why a free license -- one without special terms for one company or another, one which isn't independently negotiated -- needed to be developed in secret. I will assume you (WOTC/Hasbro) had a good reason, but it's a mystery to me.

 

[Urizen]

Every company who published OGL derivative works has published a completely open engine.

ALL OF THEM.

You want a good list? Read the latest Section 15 declarations for True20. Starting with the d20 SRD, True20 borrows from nearly every other d20 game published in the history of the OGL. Every "engine" they borrow from is Open, all the way down to True20 at the end of the line, which is also Open.

You could hardly find a better living declaration of the OGL's success than that S15.

This post is staggeringly ignorant of what the OGL is. I'm sorry. I don't mean that to sound impolite.

EDIT:



NO. NO. Even this is imprecise. It diminishes what Green Ronin is doing.

True20 has ALWAYS been Open. What Green Ronin is doing now is above and beyond even that:

They are allowing other companies to use their Trademark.

They are following in the example set by WotC.

I stand corrected.