New GSL Announcement

[Ydars]

Oh and I would also like to add, that I applaud Linae and Scott for trying to make 4E in any way "open" and I really feel for them at this time. I suspect that the GSL is one of those horrible compromises that they have had to swallow and are now forced to "front". So PLEASE can we keep this thread civil to them.

I only hope this thread adds impetus to their opinion since many of the posters here ARE the 3rd party community the GSL is designed to target. Going on current evidence, I would say the GSL is FAILING to meet its intended aims.

 

[dbolack]

How much would M&M have to change to no longer fall under the OGL but still have the game be basically the same? Change to a percentile roll instead of a d20 (neatly have it all still be 5% increments of success tho), reword abilities like Dodge that appear in the SRD, what else?

Here's your dilemma.

Having been published as a D20/ D20 SRD based OGL (I don't have my copy in front of me, I can't be absolutely correct on the markings) M&M will have a very hard time arguing it isn't a derivative work, should the lawyers come a knocking.

While it is true that you can only copyright the expression of mechanics only one or two companies in this field could afford to go to verdict.

It makes little sense to risk this.

 

[S'mon]

Here's your dilemma.

Having been published as a D20/ D20 SRD based OGL (I don't have my copy in front of me, I can't be absolutely correct on the markings) M&M will have a very hard time arguing it isn't a derivative work, should the lawyers come a knocking.

Yeah, I said that upthread. Work published under the OGL that has used chunks of the SRD really needs to stay OGL. Copyright at heart is still all about the copying of text. Like I said, it flows downhill like a river. If the judge can trace the flow from the WoTC-copyright SRD, through the OGL game, to the final non-OGL version of the game, there is copyright infringement. The publisher is in a much weaker position here than if they never had anything to do with the OGL and SRD and simply published a game that used some of the same mechanics as D&D - heck, 3e D&D uses some mechanics I saw in other non-TSR non-WoTC games from the 1990s! And that's fine, because game mechanics are not protectable IP*.

*Edit: I meant, they're not copyright protected. Yeah, I know about WoTC's patent on 'tapping' in Magic: The Gathering.

 

[xechnao]

I only hope this thread adds impetus to their opinion since many of the posters here ARE the 3rd party community the GSL is designed to target. Going on current evidence, I would say the GSL is FAILING to meet its intended aims.

If you are talking about the "master veterans" I do not believe it at this point. My best guess is that their desire is to better address a Gleemax based emergence of support. Their target is what will make Gleemax flourish best. Big players that can build communities may not be their target. Especially since OGL is still out there. Sounds something familiar?

 

[DaveMage]

Sure, a third-party 4e product, but not necessarily one from WotC, which is the whole point of the GSL from their perspective.

You're thinking too small. I agree that my one case is not necessarily relevant, but there are a few people on the Necromancer boards who are on the fence about 4E. Allowing them to take baby steps may lead to their purchase of 4E.

Many of the NG board members are GMs, and thus could have the additional effect of converting their group, etc....

 

[dbolack]

Whereas something like Berkeley/BSD license would be an example of a non-viral open source license.

Despite the folks who were so terribly upset you used to have to give credit.

However, I do not think the GSL as we understand it so far could possibly meet the criteria for being accepted as a true open license. Rather, it's some kind of limited free/shared license with some hefty restrictions on who can use it (i.e. the "no producers of OGL based material" exclusion).

Its rather hard to say, but it seems far more like a "hopefully" straight forward, limited use, no-cost license with a reasonable cure period for revocations.

And that's my monthly allotment of optimism.

 

[FalconGK81]

No GSL better than THIS GSL?

Hello,

I am currently in the midst of a spirited debate on another forum with a person who is of the opinion that "No GSL would be better than the GSL we'll be getting". I find this position to be completely ludicrous. So, since there are actual 3PP owners/employess/staff on this forum debating this topic I wanted to ask.

Is there anyone here who has been or is planning to be a 3PP who feels that No GSL would actually be better than the current GSL?

Specifically Orcus and Pramas I would love to hear your take on this. Orcus I think you've made your position on this clear, but if you'd love to elaborte I'd love to hear it. I just don't understand how being given more choice and more options (whether you choose to use them or not) is somehow worse than not having those choices.

Of course anyone is free to post their takes on this question, but since 3PP employees/owners/staff are directly impacted by this GSL, I would love to hear there stance about it.

Thank you

 

[xechnao]

I just don't understand how being given more choice and more options (whether you choose to use them or not) is somehow worse than not having those choices.

Because of Wotc's perceived position of power in the market. It is like a Cesar trying to transfer more power away of the senate(3pp) and give it to the plebs (fans) only that in fact what he wants to do is to personally gain better control the fans. I guess the senate's argument at this case to the Cesar is that the whole actual established system of control on the fans could eventually fall apart in this phase of transition -that is they do not trust the Wotc's plan will succeed. Of course their primary concern could be their immediate loss of power on the fans because if in fact the Cesar seemed to get in conflict with the senate, the plebs-fans would be more suspicious of Cesar and perhaps root more for the senators.

This is the way I see it here. Cesar does not just give choices. It creates conditional choices. It is a different thing.

 

[Orcus]

A thing just occurred to me. What about publishing D&D material without a license? We have been living with the OGL for so long that we forget that Mayfair Games worked this way for many years despite TSR's protestations.

You wanna go that route? Feel free...

That was the whole reason for the OGL and the "safe harbor."

As you can see, Mayfair weathered that storm just fine and is here with us today...oh wait. Death by litigation. (yes, not 100% true, but you dont want those legal bills, believe me).

Which, actually, brings me back to a point I made some pages back. We are currently complaining about the poison pill of giving up our right to do more 4E stuff if we go back to the OGL. But there was a perhaps less hotly contested poison pill in the original d20 STL/Guide--that we not contest Wizards' ownership of certain things. Under original copyright law, analyzed outside of teh OGL, their claim of ownership was tenuous, but credible enough that the risk of a lawsuit was real. Many of the legally minded folks balked at having to swallow that poison pill too.

 

[Orcus]

Is there anyone here who has been or is planning to be a 3PP who feels that No GSL would actually be better than the current GSL?

Specifically Orcus and Pramas I would love to hear your take on this.

Goodness gracious, no. I dont like the alleged provision, but a GSL is better, in my view, then no GSL even with the "poison pill" term.

I'm not saying I wouldnt be happy to support Paizo and Pathfinder. I would do it if I had to. I like 3E. But I want to support 4E. Philosophically, I believe in supporting the current rule set. I've explained that before. So my preference is 4E. But if they dont make that possible, then I will be right there saying Pathfinder all the way. I cant imagine they want that. Wizards is full of smart people. And good people. They know the value of third party support. They wouldnt be going through all of this headache just for some PR spin. They know the value of third party support.