New Haste - Does it Fix Your Concerns?

[Ciaran]

I’m of the opinion that, whether or not Quicken Spell is underpowered, that haste shouldn’t allow the casting of additional spells; it makes the spell such a ‘gimme’ that no high level spellcaster can afford to go without it; and despite various arguments, my vision of D&D magic still doesn’t incorporate the notion that increased speed alone is sufficient to increase one’s casting rate.

However, I think that limiting the bonus action from haste to an attack is a mistake. If you’re actually faster, why not allow the recipient to draw a weapon / light a torch / move farther / etc? Is it really that difficult to say, “This additional action may not be a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability”?

- Eric

 

[Aloïsius]

As was said before, the old 2E haste doubled your attack, but not your spellcasting. Back to the roots, it seems, and no renaming neccessary.

Everything 2E is anathema for me. Those root are roten. A spell named haste should make you quicker, period. +1 attack per round is frenzy, not haste, I agree with Gez.

For a wizard( or a sorcerer, a bard...), the spell is useless : a third level spell giving you +4 AC for 1 round per level ? Compare it with Mage armor or Shield or Displacement... If only it could give you an attack OR a move...Nope. Smash smash smash : we already have Tenser transformation, the new haste seems like a variation of this theme.

 

[Seule]

I play a 20th level Elemental Savant. I have 9th level spells, and I currently cast Mass Haste as the first spell of any combat. I'd be willing to take the spell Haste, as listen in the PH, as a 9th level spell. Think about it: For the cost of one spell at the beginning of the combat, I get a +4 stacking AC bonus, and I get to cast another spell anyway. Next round and every subsequent round I get 2 spells, instead of 1. If I didn't cast the Haste I'd only get the one spell, without the AC bonus.
Haste is completely broken, there is never a reason to not cast it as your first spell of any combat, other than worrying about running out of Hastes.
Once you hit 7th level spells and can Quicken it, it lets you cast 2 spells of your highest level in the first combat round, plus the AC bonus. It's not just too low level, it so completely overpowered that everyone, spellcaster or not, needs it to compete.
In my home game, I put in a fix: No haste. In fact, nothing that gives you extra actions (No Schism, no Timestop, nothing.) It makes combat go much faster, it helps players not be bored, and it makes combat more tactical, in that you have to be more careful when moving, you'll lose the full attack. And because nobody has it, nobody misses it.

The revision makes it a pretty good enhancement spell. +4 AC and an extra attack, when your allies would only be getting 1 or 2 normally, makes them about twice as effective. I'll still be both taking and casting it, and the Mass Hastes will still be going out every combat, but they are no longer a necessity.

--Seule

 

[Gez]

Bleeeeh

Back to the roots ?

> An interesting thing Skip Williams pointed out during the talk. He quoted Monte Cooke as saying "We are making D&D more like D&D" in reference to 3e back in 2000. That was the mantra then, the new mantra is, "We are making 3e more like 3e."

Back to the roots ?

3e was about options, not restrictions (another commercial mantra). Not it's restriction time again, this spell lets you do that and only that, period.

Back to the roots ?

Will they also bring back level limits and class/race restrictions ?

Back to the roots ?

I'll stay in the branches, the air is fresher and easier to breathe.

 

[Gez]

Also:

There's always something on the top of the heap. Haste was maybe the top 3rd level spell (not from my own experience, but I've never played wizards above level 7, so), but now that it's nerfed and worse than bull's strength or shield in its usefulness, there's another 3rd-level spell that's on top of the heap. Maybe dispel magic. Will they nerf it in D&D 4 ? Then there will be something else. And so on.

Prestidigitation is broken as a cantrip, it's so much more useful and versatile than the others. Will it get nerfed also ? Wish is broken as a 9th level spell as well. Magic missile as a first level spell.

But they are only broken in contrast to the other of the same level. They define the upper limit of their level.

Why not just removing the spellcasting classes ? That would makes the game easiest to understand (no magic rules to learn), easier to balance, remove lots of debates and arguments, and would be much less hypocritical.

 

[Erastus]

There were a lot of spells, feats and other things in 3e that might have gotten overused or had the potential to be abused in my campaigns... to be honest haste wasn't one of them. I can't think of a single character in the three or four D&D campaigns we've run since d20 that had a problem with it (and on one of those campaigns half the party were arcane casters). So one thing that strikes me about this change is that it seems like tweaking for the sake of saying things have been tweaked. One more thing that lets them slap the 'New and Improved' label on the revised books. That seems like a big part of the rationale for this change.

A fighter getting on in levels gets what? 3-5 attacks on a full attack action? Probably doing insane damage from all those attacks with magic items, buffs, strength bonuses, feats and the rest of the kitchen sink? And a mage casting one extra spell is such a threat? Okay, many spells affect an area so the mage is potentially hitting more than one opponent in a round. But then we've got fighters with cleave and combat reflexes, many other options, that gives them a chance to attack more than one opponent in at least some shape or form. I don't see any imbalance here.

But how do we fix it? Make it so that the spell can give fighters even more attacks and spellcasters can only do one thing! Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I've never been a big fan of the 'seriously limit something so that more people will take a certain feat (which is deeply flawed)'. Why, exactly, would I sacrifice a spell that is going to be considerably more effective just to get off a quick spell that is pretty much a tinker toy at my level? I never saw the quicken spell option as a combat feat. Just take a little longer to cast a much more effective spell, cast on the defensive and take combat casting if you're worried about getting interrupted. It's more of a 'spell needs to be cast in a hurry because of dire circumstances' feat. Haste is a combat spell. Why limit a combat spell so people favor a feat that works best in non-combat situations? No sense at all.

The fact that it makes the title 'haste' a bit of a misnomer also leaves a little bit of a funny taste in my mouth, as it does for some others here.

The rationale that they are just taking the spell back to its 2e roots is somewhat unsettling to me. I played 2e, I liked 2e, but then 3e came along, intended to be an improvement over the previous systems with more consistency and internal logic. And I did for the most part see it as a huge improvement. It was in effect supposed to be a 'whole new game'. Rationalizing the change by saying that it's the way things were done in the older versions of the game when this is a 'whole new game' makes me nervous about some of the other changes we might see. How valid is 3e as a whole new game if we're revising it with 2e concepts?


Funny, I didn't have any concerns about haste. I do now. I wasn't quite sure what I was going to say when I started posting this, but I guess I've decided I don't really like this after all. I wonder if WoTC could use their Star Wars license to put the phrase 'I have a bad feeling about this' on their revised products?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't really have a problem with the revision...but who has a problem with the flavor.

2e biases aside ("because it was like this in 2e!" isn't really a valid argument anymore), the spell doesn't do what you'd think it would from the name and the description.

The spell does probably need a revision. This revision, though, blows. I'd rather see it bumped up a level, or taken a full round to cast (THAT'S going to be implemented IMC!), or both, or dropping the +4 AC (which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me in the first place), or reducing the duration to one round PERIOD.

It's easy enough to house rule, but it's truly sad...

Haste is now "Beat things with a stick more times, and also dodge better." It's not "make me faster!" It doesn't FEEL like the character gets any quicker, when the main bonus is an extra attack...heck, another weapon will give you that.

I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it, I just think it's a very...unpleasant step down the slippery slope of Rules over Fun, of Limits over Options, of Crunch over Fluff.

Meh. Whatever. Haste will be changed in my games, it just won't have the official version to replace it.

BETTER IDEA! The Time Mage is going to have some haste-variants, methinks....

 

[incognito]

I don't love the fix, but I like it.

Casters would take Haste as a level 3, 4, 5, 6 spell! That says over powered to me.

It pays or itself (you can cast haste, and STILL move, and cast a spell in the same round). It also allows casters to really dish out the spells, quickly.

spell as std action, a quickened spell, spell cast during hasted partial action.

for those who don;t think quickened is worth it - try quickening a shield, or a true strike, or a pro evil (to block out summoned creatures) - suddently not so sucky.

Our hasted cleric (Magic domain, spell focus: enchantment) dropped a quickened Hold Person, a Greater Command, then a Hasted Heightened Santuary.

Oppenents (and PCs) typically cannot withstand 2/3 save or die spells a rounds, and haste made it too easy to do that. Take from our Wizard, who was disintigrated...twice.

The CR 11 wizard had an elven wizard CR5 underling who's job in life was to be FAST, and cast haste on his master. Didn't even change the EL

Also, it allows the Combat Wizrd to live on, which bumping Haste's level would make more difficult.

Like I said, I like it.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I play a 20th level Elemental Savant. I have 9th level spells, and I currently cast Mass Haste as the first spell of any combat. I'd be willing to take the spell Haste, as listen in the PH, as a 9th level spell. Think about it: For the cost of one spell at the beginning of the combat, I get a +4 stacking AC bonus, and I get to cast another spell anyway.

The thing is if poly self(which ever errata you want) was the only way to change self, I'd take it as a 9th level spell and cast it every day. If fly were the only way to get air borne I'd take it as a 9th level spell and cast it every day. I'd take improved invis as a 9th level spell, and lots of other spells out there.

Just because an effect is such that you'd take it as a 9th level spell doesn't mean that it is balanced at a 9th level spell. Haste as written was good, too good for a 3rd level spell even. I'd persoanlly place it somewhere between 4 and 5th level.

 

[Gez]

The thing is if poly self(which ever errata you want) was the only way to change self, I'd take it as a 9th level spell and cast it every day. If fly were the only way to get air borne I'd take it as a 9th level spell and cast it every day. I'd take improved invis as a 9th level spell, and lots of other spells out there.

Just because an effect is such that you'd take it as a 9th level spell doesn't mean that it is balanced at a 9th level spell. Haste as written was good, too good for a 3rd level spell even. I'd persoanlly place it somewhere between 4 and 5th level.

How true that is.