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5E New Interactive DPR Visualization Tool

Chryssis

Explorer
Hey esker really like it. three things for debugging when you get around to it.
1. seems Booming blade has no +dmg effect if there is no class 2 "other full caster" of at least lvl1. i tested BB with lhs fighter 4 rhs paladin 4 and rhs fighter 4 lhs fighter 4. no other settings changed, both scenarios there is no change selecting BB on either RHS or LHS. if you change to a dual wield build and select BB it does however drop the dmg.
2. rhs class 3 must be set to mirror,, any other setting results in an error.
3. Greataxe is not benefiting from GWM calculation as it is not listed as heavy weapon

cheers,
 
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Esker

Hero
Hey esker really like it. three things for debugging when you get around to it.
1. seems Booming blade has no +dmg effect. i tested BB with lhs fighter 4 rhs paladin 4 and rhs fighter 4 lhs fighter 4. no other settings changed, both scenarios there is no change selecting BB on either RHS or LHS. if you change to a dual wield build and select BB it does however drop the dmg.
2. rhs class 3 must be set to mirror,, any other setting results in an error.
3. Greataxe is not benefiting from GWM calculation as it is not listed as heavy weapon

cheers,
That behavior for BB is expected if character level is 4; it doesn't do anything until level 5 when it scales, since I'm not modeling the movement rider (though it would be easy enough to add it with a slider setting the chance that it triggers).

Thanks for catching the greataxe issue; I'll fix that.

It's just class 3 on the right that's throwing an error if it's not set to mirror? Probably a typo somewhere; I'll check it out.

Thanks for the testing!
 

Esker

Hero
Hey esker really like it. three things for debugging when you get around to it.
1. seems Booming blade has no +dmg effect if there is no class 2 "other full caster" of at least lvl1. i tested BB with lhs fighter 4 rhs paladin 4 and rhs fighter 4 lhs fighter 4. no other settings changed, both scenarios there is no change selecting BB on either RHS or LHS. if you change to a dual wield build and select BB it does however drop the dmg.
2. rhs class 3 must be set to mirror,, any other setting results in an error.
3. Greataxe is not benefiting from GWM calculation as it is not listed as heavy weapon

cheers,
The Greataxe should be properly "heavy" now, and the class 3 bug should be fixed.

I changed the interface a little bit to only display additional class options if you've made a selection for the previous one, and to hide the other options for feats, etc. if "mirror" is selected, to avoid confusion there --- now that I know how to make the UI layout dynamic, it should make adding subclasses, etc. a lot cleaner.

Chryssis, does BB work as expected for you if you raise character level to 5 or above?
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Really nice so far.

Is there any way to see where it's getting the numbers? For example a Fighter 4->5 has a much bigger jump in GWM damage than a Barbarian of the same levels.

If you are taking feature requests, I'd love to add in Bless and other static modifiers like magic weapons.
 

Esker

Hero
Really nice so far.
Thanks!

Is there any way to see where it's getting the numbers?
Yes! At least to an extent; there's a checkbox under Display Settings to show internal variables, which will display a big table of things below the graph, including attack and damage modifiers, number of attacks per round, attack actions and bonus action attack per day, etc. Please do let me know if you find settings that produce values there that don't seem correct.

For example a Fighter 4->5 has a much bigger jump in GWM damage than a Barbarian of the same levels.
I'm not currently seeing this, but I don't know what exact settings you're using; it's entirely possible there's a bug somewhere. What weapon configuration and other options are you looking at? How many rounds per day and short rests per day do you have set?

The only difference right now between selecting fighter and barbarian is that fighter has action surge automatically included in the average based on the rounds and short rests you input, and barbarian has an option to turn on rage (it's not averaged across the day yet; just a toggle). So if rage is not turned on (and you don't set a high advantage % for the barb to reflect reckless attack) then the fighter will have an edge, but it shouldn't be huge unless you have a very small number of rounds per day, or a large number of short rests.

If you are taking feature requests, I'd love to add in Bless and other static modifiers like magic weapons.
Good idea. I'm currently in the middle of a refactor to allow various generic damage dice bonuses to be added in with various uses available (ranging from every hit to once per round, to a fixed number of times per rest), but an attack bonus is easy to add as well, and I will probably add static bonuses also. For now though you can simulate a basic +X magic weapon through the starting ability score slider and ASI checkboxes, bumping your attack stat to a max of 24.
 

TaranTheWanderer

Adventurer
This is cool...but I must be missing something. Hand crossbow seems to be the best weapon. And Pure fighter seems the most consistent output throughout the levels and the best dpr at 20th. Maybe I'm not using the tool correctly.
 

This is cool...but I must be missing something. Hand crossbow seems to be the best weapon. And Pure fighter seems the most consistent output throughout the levels and the best dpr at 20th. Maybe I'm not using the tool correctly.
Try a polearm with GWM and PAM.

But yes, taps+gwm are crazy good.

But you can beat fighter 20. Barb 9/Fighter 11 (champion), GWM, PAM, -5/+10 100% reckless advantage vs Fighter 20 (mirror) ~30% advantage wins.

5/4 attacks is 25%, but reliable reckless and -5/+10 works really well together.
 
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Esker

Hero
This is cool...but I must be missing something. Hand crossbow seems to be the best weapon. And Pure fighter seems the most consistent output throughout the levels and the best dpr at 20th. Maybe I'm not using the tool correctly.
Hand crossbow is a good choice with crossbow expert, since the bonus action attack is generally worth more than the bigger damage dice from a longbow, etc. I'm not currently enforcing the loading property without the feat, fwiw, though it'd be an easy thing to add. Even so, I think you can find higher DPR combinations (Fighter X / Barb 2 with PAM+GWM and a and setting advantage to 100% to represent reckless attack does better than Fighter 20 with all the archery fixins --- and really I suppose at that point you probably may as well do Fighter 11 / Barb 2 / Paladin X or something to put some smites on there); though when I add precision attack from Battlemaster I expect that will change)

I'm definitely interested in cases that don't seem to work as expected though, so if you think a gap is larger than it should be, or something doesn't add up the way it should, please let me know (with the specific settings you are using) so I can find bugs.
 

TaranTheWanderer

Adventurer
ok, I see how reckless attack increases damage output at the higher ACs. I've never understood how Crossbow expert allowed for high damage output because I always felt you needed a free hand to load the crossbow so I never really considered it. But that's a subject for another thread (or has been the subject of countless threads)

I also noticed that Fighter outperforms rogue in all instances - mostly because of the lack of fighting styles. So it seems that a rogue must make a 1 level dip in fighter to increase performance.

On a separate note (and stop me if this isn't the place to talk about it), do melee tend to outperform casters in DPR or are there too many variables to compare? I only ask because, not even an hour before I found this thread, my son was telling me fighters can't really do a lot of damage at 20th level compared to a wizard and I had no way to demonstrate that fighters were good at damage output. I guess the other thing to consider is this is comparing single target damage.

Adding Sentinel in there to add reaction attacks would be interesting.
 

ok, I see how reckless attack increases damage output at the higher ACs. I've never understood how Crossbow expert allowed for high damage output because I always felt you needed a free hand to load the crossbow so I never really considered it. But that's a subject for another thread (or has been the subject of countless threads)
XBE says "if you attack with a weapon, you can make an attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action".

The weapon that triggers the bonus action attack... can also be a hand crossbow. The SAME hand crossbow.

So you use a hand crossbow, and a hand free. The free hand reloads the hand crossbow. Loading a weapon is part of its attack. You may need to use your free object interaction to have it loaded before you do your bonus action attack.

---

Magic-item less martial DPR in 5e is about taps times damage per tap.

SS or GWM boosts your damage per tap.

XBE or PAM boosts your taps.

The +10 from GWM/SS overwealms die size.

Now, a polearm (1d10 main, 1d4 bonus) is better than a hand xbow (1d6 main, 1d6 bonus), but only marginally.

Melee weapon's main edge on ranged weapons is the existence of girdles of giant strength, which permit strength over 20, and flametongue weapons. There is no equivalent for dex builds.

Ranged weapons get magic arrows.

A flametongue polearm is 12.5 main/9.5 bonus at +0 to hit. Throw on 29 strength girdle (+9/+9) and GWM (-5/+10) and you are at +10/(31.5/28.5) ATK/damage, plus a few points from GWF style.

A +3 hand crossbow with +3 bolts is 9.5 main/9.5 bonus at +6 to hit. 20 dex (+5/+5) and SS (-5/+10) and archery (+2) style you are at +14/24.5.

A fighter's attack round is then +10 to hit for a total of 154.5 damage on polearm, or +14 to hit for a total of 122.5 on hand crossbow.

Note that flametongue compared to a +3 weapon is a -3 to hit for +4 to damage. It acts like a "mini -5/+10" trade of accuracy for damage, but is less efficient. It is also as rare as a +2 weapon, so it is more like -2 to hit for +5 to damage, which is a better ratio than -5/+10. It also deals extra crit damage.

So the XBow has very rare hand xbow and many, many consumable very rare +3 arrows. The melee build has a legendary girdle and a rare polearm.

There isn't a +damage weapon on the scale of a +3 weapon (very rare); in theory it could deal +3d6 damage (10.5) for -3 to hit for +7.5 to damage.


---

The Barb9/Fighter11 version drops from 5 to 4 swings in exchange for increased accuracy and crit chance on those swings (plus some crit damage and flat damage from rage).

This makes the penalty to-hit from GWM less important, and lands more taps. But a girdle of giant strength also does this almost as well.
 
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Esker

Hero
I also noticed that Fighter outperforms rogue in all instances - mostly because of the lack of fighting styles. So it seems that a rogue must make a 1 level dip in fighter to increase performance.
Generally rogues focused on damage want to do a few things to be competitive with fighters. First, they either want to be using their bonus action to hide (to get advantage regularly), using their bonus action to do two-weapon fighting, since like advantage that gives them a second roll to trigger sneak attack, or they want to be using booming blade, preferably with a familiar using the help action (which arcane tricksters can get automatically and other rogues can get by taking Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster (Wizard)). Elven accuracy is also a good pickup for them, because (a) they are generally using DEX anyway, so it also raises their main attack stat, (b) they can get advantage on most of their attacks so it's relevant often, and (c) because they do a lot of extra damage on a crit.

A rogue with booming blade, elven accuracy, and a high % of advantage can be competitive with most fighter builds, at least in terms of the base class, especially against higher AC enemies. Battlemaster superiority dice used well though (particularly precision attack) synergize extremely well with the -5/+10 feats though, and a rogue isn't going to be able to compete with that.

On a separate note (and stop me if this isn't the place to talk about it), do melee tend to outperform casters in DPR or are there too many variables to compare?

I only ask because, not even an hour before I found this thread, my son was telling me fighters can't really do a lot of damage at 20th level compared to a wizard and I had no way to demonstrate that fighters were good at damage output. I guess the other thing to consider is this is comparing single target damage.
Casters are definitely more complex to model for a variety of reasons: they have a lot more choice points (spells at multiple levels, AoE vs single target, damage vs control, etc.) and their effectiveness is more variable depending on the specific encounters they're facing (moreso than for single-target DPR martials, for whom enemy AC captures much of what you need to know about what's in an encounter).

I do think it's true that, for the most part, full casters who pick the best spells (and who maybe take a level or two in something to shore up weak points or take advantage of good synergies) are going to be more effective than martials --- maybe not in terms of single-target damage, but in terms of overall contribution to a party.

If you can combine a souped up eldritch blast with, say, spirit guardians, and good defenses (e.g., medium armor, shields, and good concentration saves), which is easy to do with a couple of levels in Hexblade and the rest in Divine Soul Sorcerer, say, you're pretty likely to damage the pants off of any martial.

Wizards on the other hand are at their best when they're not focused on damage, but rather on control -- Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Force, Mass Suggestion, Forcecage, for example -- none of which do any direct damage, but which can single-handedly win encounters nonetheless. But that's much harder to quantify.

Adding Sentinel in there to add reaction attacks would be interesting.
Yeah, one thing on my to-do list which would cover this and several other cases in a fairly straighforward way is to add a "% reaction attacks" slider. I don't necessarily want to make specific assumptions about how often things like Sentinel or PAM, etc. will trigger reaction attacks, so I'd rather just make it an input option.
 

This is really coming along!

What I'm wishing for are two features:
  1. The ability to compare more builds simultaneously.
  2. An easy way to post/share builds.

I'm not sure if this is possible with the libraries you're using, but if I were building it manually this is what I might do:
  1. Instead of two identical input interfaces on opposite sides, just one, with an "open/close" toggle (like the sort that collapses a folder view in a file browser.).
  2. An "Add New Build" button, or maybe a "Duplicate This Build" so that you don't have to start from scratch each time. Each new build you add appears as another line in the chart. The open/close buttons enable you to pack a bunch of them on the screen without overcrowding. (I might even set it up so that only one can be opened at a time...but would want to test out whether that's annoying.)
  3. Add a text field to the build interface that displays an alphanumeric string representing the build. (Basically you come up with a scheme...a code...to represent builds, then convert it into a base-36 or base-62 number). To share a build, you just copy this string and post it in the forum. Somebody else can copy/paste that string into the same text field and...presto!...build shared.
  4. Finally, add a utility (maybe on the right side of the chart) that shows only the deltas between the builds currently displayed. Currently it's too easy to lose track of how the builds differ. For example, if the only thing different is that one has Great Weapon Master and one doesn't, then the only thing in this new panel is something like "Build 1: Great Weapon Master (true)" and "Build 2: Great Weapon Master (false)" or something like that. That way you can double check that you're testing what you think you're testing.

Again, none of this might be possible with those libraries. It would require a whole bunch of server-side javascript. Just sorta daydreaming here.
 

So, take champion 3 rogue 17 with elven accuracy and advantage, dual wielding.

The crit chance per swing is 1-.9^3 or 27.1%. Their miss chance against AC 8 is 0.0125% (basically zero).

A simple play is to make an attack. If it crits, use sneak attack. If not, you save your sneak attack for your offhand attack.

This gives a 27.1% + 27.1%(1-27.1%), or 46.9% chance to do a sneak attack crit. And your chances of landing a sneak attack remain basically 100%.

So you deal 9d6 * 1.469 + 2 * (1d6+5) + .271 * 2 * 1d6 or 65.1705 damage per round (and a bit more on action surge rounds).

The calculator says this build does 55 damage per round.

I suspect your calculator doesn't crit-fish with sneak attack.

As a general rule, if your chance of missing with all remaining attacks is less than your chance of critting on all remaining attacks this round, you should hold off your sneak attack unless your current attack is a crit.

Given a miss chance M% and a crit chance C%, we can say how many attacks we should crit fish for. Once we have done this, we can calculate what our sneak attack chance is and our sneak attack crit chance is this round.
 

Esker

Hero
This is really coming along!

What I'm wishing for are two features:
  1. The ability to compare more builds simultaneously.
  2. An easy way to post/share builds.
Solid suggestions. I'd been thinking about how best to do #1, layout-wise, so it doesn't get too cluttered, but yeah, maybe having the build params "fold up" is the way to go. I think there's a fairly standard way to add arbitrarily many UI elements in Shiny.

I hadn't considered your second suggestion before... Generating a unique string seems like a great way to go about it though. Thanks for the idea!
 

Esker

Hero
I suspect your calculator doesn't crit-fish with sneak attack.

As a general rule, if your chance of missing with all remaining attacks is less than your chance of critting on all remaining attacks this round, you should hold off your sneak attack unless your current attack is a crit.
No, it definitely doesn't crit fish; the current sneak calculation assumes you use it on the first hit. Similarly with smites; the calculation assumes they're used on randomly chosen hits, such that the proportion of smites that are crits is the same as the proportion of hits overall. You suggested the crit-fish option before, and it's definitely on my radar. I don't want to have that be the default, because I think absolute optimal deployment requires more on the fly calculation than most players are likely to do. But I'll likely add it as an option.
 

No, it definitely doesn't crit fish; the current sneak calculation assumes you use it on the first hit. Similarly with smites; the calculation assumes they're used on randomly chosen hits, such that the proportion of smites that are crits is the same as the proportion of hits overall. You suggested the crit-fish option before, and it's definitely on my radar. I don't want to have that be the default, because I think absolute optimal deployment requires more on the fly calculation than most players are likely to do. But I'll likely add it as an option.
Well you could have a number for fishing then.

"If you have X swings left, and you don't get a crit, you hold off your sneak attack".

Then the player can mess with the slider.

---

For smites, you can calculate expected crits/day. And a slider "percent of smites saved for crits", which caps out if you run out of crits?
 
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Well you could have a number for fishing then.

"If you have X swings left, and you don't get a crit, you hold off your sneak attack".

Then the player can mess with the slider.
Actually, a tool like this could be just right (for those who don’t want to do the arithmetic) for figuring out at what AC it makes sense to crit fish.
 

Esker

Hero
Actually, a tool like this could be just right (for those who don’t want to do the arithmetic) for figuring out at what AC it makes sense to crit fish.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Set three modes: "1st Hit", "1st Crit or Last Attack", "Optimal"
 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Set three modes: "1st Hit", "1st Crit or Last Attack", "Optimal"
Well “optimal” will be the same line as the second option for low ACs, then become the 1st option for high ACs. It’s the crossover point that’s interesting/useful, because it tells you at what AC to switch strats.

Further complicated by advantage and multiple attacks.
 

Esker

Hero
Well “optimal” will be the same line as the second option for low ACs, then become the 1st option for high ACs. It’s the crossover point that’s interesting/useful, because it tells you at what AC to switch strats.

Further complicated by advantage and multiple attacks.
Yeah, right; you can graph the first two settings against each other to find the cross-over point, but then when you know where it is, you can just select "optimal" to compare your character to something else.
 

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