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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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Vaalingrade

Legend
The setting was a big thing, but not how people seem to remember.

It was started with the Golden Wyvern Adept fiasco of the game daring to have an assumed name for an organization. Which was blasphemy in a game that is obsessed with including Mordenaiknen's Surface to Air Missile and Bigby's Clapping Cheeks.
 

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Zaukrie

New Publisher
I suspect he's ... not entirely wrong there. Mostly, but not entirely.

It's worth remembering that Grand History of the Realms actually preceded the 4e core books by a short time, and this was where some of the more boneheaded changes to FR lore first got released to a largely-unimpressed reception. Tyr killing Helm, just to choose one example.

For me as a customer (just as one data point, of course), this made the job one step harder for the 4e team. GHotR (and the FR 4e leaks that started to trickle out after it) was basically a huge red flag being waved around with alarms blaring 'this book is garbage and these people REALLY don't know what they are doing!' Losing my trust on something like that made it harder for me to trust WotC over 4e, and indeed, in the end I never played it.

This is not to say the ONLY reason i disliked 4e was the setting changes. I had plenty of other objections, from monsters being shallow and boring to an over-focus on the battlemap rather than the world, to the ridiculously broken and badly-thought-out maths in things like the early iterations of skill challenges. I think Heinsoo is perhaps making a few excuses here. But the setting stuff meant the ruleset came into bat with one strike already recorded (apologies for the bad sports metaphor, I'm Australian and we don't do baseball here...).

(I do feel sorry for the GHotR guy, from time to time. He was a complete FR lore nerd, one of the incredibly dedicated ones, and GHotR was his labor of fannish love for many years, and it finally got officially noticed and published, then the misfiring WotC brains trust of the time decided to populate the last chapter with some of the worst dross you could imagine, and ruthlessly blow up the setting he clearly loved. Must have been a rough experience for him)
Monsters were literally at their best in 4e. I have no idea what you mean at all here.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
People at the end of (official support for) 3e understood many of the flaws of the game's design. They understood that the class tiers, while semi-intentional, had done pretty severe damage to the play-experience. They understood that Vancian spellcasting was incredibly overwrought and overcomplicated, while at the same time being heavily abusable by players. They understood that PrCs were busted to hell and back (hence the vehement opposition to anything PrC-like being added to 5e, because the well is so thoroughly poisoned that no one is willing to let WotC try again). People knew that high-level 3e was terrible to run, being incredibly DM-intensive without actually rewarding the DM with much freedom. People knew that the Full Attack concept had sounded cool, but ended up being an albatross around 3e's neck. Etc.

A lot of 3e's problems were known and understood. And a lot of the solutions are pretty consistent; there's a reason people who have played both games draw comparisons between 4e and PF2e.
I'd suggest that the designers' view of what was busted was different, perhaps in major ways, from the players' view of what was busted.

Like, 4e codified the Fighter as a Defender and gave it a mark mechanic. I can imagine that this was fixing a 3e problem, a problem that late 3e also tried to fix: a fighter has no inherent feature to serve as an "attention-getting" mechanic, and so can struggle with being the party tank. A problem I personally broadly agree with.

But there's consequences to that design. Like, now you've given the Fighter an explicit mechanical in-combat Role, we can't have different kinds of Fighters. We can't have self-interested mercenaries and high-damage giant-slayers. All Fighters are Defenders.

Yeah, 4e's mark is a solid Defender mechanic (not perfect, maybe, but it does its job well), but giving players that option is quite a different take than making it a core component of the class's identity. I don't think that's a fix to a problem the player base was having in a broad sense. I think it's a fix to a problem that some part of the player base was having - the part that really liked the kind of combat that 4e highlighted, for instance.

But that wasn't all of the player base! It might not've even been most of the player base (though it might've been the most Online of the player base at the time). "The Fighter isn't a good Defender" was only a problem for some people in late 3e, and the fix in 4e solved a problem that simply didn't exist for a lot of players in a way that was pretty deeply inflexible. They had to eventually make a whole alternate Fighter class to try and fill the demand for a more hard-hitting fighter.

Unfortunately, it just really is the case that some people are attached to...frankly, busted mechanics. Being able to be the star of the show. Being the god-wizard, who elects to allow others to participate because that's more fun than just solving every problem yourself. Being the insanely powerful shapeshifter-spellcaster-pet-owner. Etc. And, on the flipside, some people are so used to slapping patch after patch after patch after patch onto their game, they no longer see that activity as reflecting that there are problems with the underlying system; they see it as just the cost of doing business.
The language of "you're attached to busted mechanics" is part of how early 4e got this reputation for a kind of inflexible arrogance.

"What do you mean you don't want your Fighters to be good Defenders, it's just an obviously better way to play!" Well, sure, buddy, but if I was playing 3e more as improv theater without a battlemat and less of a game of pushing minis around, it's not better for my purposes, is it? Pushing minis around isn't how that person plays D&D and so that's not really fixing a problem they have.

Having a powerful character who can significantly impact the narrative and game flow isn't a flaw in the design that needs to be fixed for a lot of players, so "fixing" it is removing part of the fun of the game.

It would always have been controversial--slaying sacred cows is like that. But if it had prevented the formation of Pathfinder (or, better yet, gotten Golarion as an official 3rd-party setting for 4e), straightened out its own act, presented itself as looking and feeling like a traditional D&D game even though the rules worked differently, prepared better for an incipient and extremely severe recession, and prevented the tragedies and unwise choices that repeatedly doomed the digital tools...I really do think 4e could have overcome the opposition it faced. A lack of organized resistance would have left a lot of players sticking with D&D because, as different as 4e might be, it's not AS different as something like World of Darkness or Shadowrun. It still has AC and attack rolls and six stats and modifiers and familiar classes etc.

Personally, I think some of the mechanical choices were so at odds with how a significant portion of the audience wanted to play D&D that trying to flavor them as just like the D&D you always knew and loved would lead to some pretty angry and shocked reactions. "No, my Fighters aren't like this, my Wizards aren't like this, my Elves aren't like this, stop telling me how the way I've been having fun isn't the right way."

Not that the change in flavor helped ("no, I don't necessarily want to play in the D&D designers fantasy heartbreaker homebrew, why is that the only option, why can't I play my D&D?"), but I think that the mechanics were also a big part of the stumble, because in at significant scale, they solved for problems that were not really problems for a lot of people.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I'm very curious if the idea of changing only the rules and not the setting would have made 4E more palatable to D&D fans. It seems to have worked for Pathfinder 2E, which changed the rules drastically but kept the setting largely the same.
I wouldn't blame 4E's failure on the setting.

First off, I think the PF2 sales numbers would qualify as failure to WotC. Conversely, I think Paizo would have been happy with 4E's numbers.

No, after having thought about why, after initially liking both games, I ultimately rejected both of them, my theory is that both games changed combat into its own thing, almost a subgame.

In 1E and 3E and 5E you can organically move in and out of combat. Both 4E and PF2 presents combat as set pieces (especially if you run printed modules; what you do in the comfort of your own home isn't my business), things that are meant to create an initial feeling of dread ("we're doomed") and then building towards that Rocky-like moment of victory beyond all odds.

If I only were to rate the combat system, both games get high grades.

I just can't use them for my role-playing campaigns. In 1E or 3E or 5E you can just have some monsters appear, and possible the fight is over before it even started, possibly you have an epic showdown. But the games doesn't try very hard to make that happen.

Which isn't so much that it's "great". It's essential for my DMing style.

There's such a thing as leaving "realism" too far behind. 5E sure isn't realistic, but a random combat doesn't feel too out of place. 4E and PF2 completely abandon any pretense the games simulate some kind of weird reality, they're both far too gamist for that.

Details about settings aren't even blips on the radar if I'm answering why we're all playing 5E instead of these two games.
 

Kurotowa

Legend
My usual play group started up a new campaign when 4e launched, went for three or four months, and then collectively agreed it wasn't for us. So we played other games like Pathfinder or Savage World until good word of mouth about 5e lured us back.

It's been a long time, so I don't remember the details too clearly, but I think most of the group's problem was that 4e was just too technical. All the PC abilities were about position and movement, or stacking bonuses and penalties, or triggering conditionals. And no one in the group was really down for that. Either they were too casual to want to keep track of it all, or they had wargames for that business and wanted something different out of D&D.

Which is probably what people mean when they say that 4e "wasn't Dungeons & Dragons". That while it might be effective at doing its own thing, it didn't deliver the play experience people expected and desired from D&D. The players that were willing and able to adapt to it had a good time. The ones who were looking for a specific playstyle, due to habit or personal taste, were disappointed and turned away.

So yeah, it's New Coke all over again. Complete with everyone coming back when they revert to Classic.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
In terms of setting, I hadn't really used the specifics of the default settings that much before, we built our own. So all I wanted was for most of the monsters and races in the game to be vaguely setting agnostic. So those changes weren't a huge reason for not being a big fan.
  • I have a memory of really disliking changes to the giants iirc (did they get a lot more elementally?) If I felt like thinking harder there might have been a few others around the edges too.
  • At first I wasn't a fan of the Shadowfell/Feywild but am now. (Were those introduced in 4e or were they from older things I had ignored? Was it the Eladrin that were strongly tied to Feywild? At the time I don't think I liked them).
In terms of other things...
  • The roll out of the Players Handbooks as separate things like they did certainly didn't do anything to minimize how big the changes felt to me at first.
  • I agree with others who felt the play of the game didn't feel like what D&D had always felt like to me (from B/X, through 1e, 2e, and 3.5/PF). At times I have wondered if changing the presentation would have made me not hate skill challenges. Playing 5e again for a while, and I think I would still not be a fan of them.
  • I hated it didn't use the OGL. (I like that the OGL, CC, or whatnot keeps a dream alive that I could make something based on it if I wanted to).
  • Happy enough with 5e for my playstyle.
"<blank> was in <x edition>." Seems like a silly reason to judge something as good or bad. I think there have been things in every edition that would make a list of things I'd keep and things in every edition that would make the list of things I'd nuke.
 
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Retreater

Legend
Monsters were literally at their best in 4e. I have no idea what you mean at all here.
I'm not going to answer for @humble minion - but I can tell you what I find disappointing about monsters in 4e.
First, I do greatly appreciate having unified stat blocks, powers instead of spells, & roles to know how to use monsters in a combat.
Here's my issue.
I was running a fight a few weeks ago - one of the enemies was a Skulk. That's a lurker. He had a bonus to Stealth checks to hide. Caused 5 points of bonus damage on attacks against people who couldn't see him.
In previous editions, Skulks were mysterious people who could blend into their surroundings. They could be thieves or assassinate targets. You could run an entire night's adventure around a single one.
In 4e, a skulk (like any other monster) just contributed a role to a balanced combat encounter.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Monsters were literally at their best in 4e. I have no idea what you mean at all here.
This is a pretty nice example of the divergence I'm talking about.

4e monsters were great as elements of combat on a minis grid.

4e monsters were not so great as, say, world-building props. 2e's monsters are probably the best example of that.

What is a D&D monster for? Well, ultimately, for both of those things. Focusing only on one is not really making a "good D&D monster." I wouldn't pretend that a lot of 2e monsters were any fun in an actual fight, but they were interesting encounters. I also wouldn't pretend that I'd treat 4e's monsters as much more than combat toys, but they are dang fine combat toys.

If you make a D&D monster just about one of those things, it's not actually doing a very good job of being a D&D monster, for all people who play D&D.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
This is a pretty nice example of the divergence I'm talking about.

4e monsters were great as elements of combat on a minis grid.

4e monsters were not so great as, say, world-building props. 2e's monsters are probably the best example of that.

What is a D&D monster for? Well, ultimately, for both of those things. Focusing only on one is not really making a "good D&D monster." I wouldn't pretend that a lot of 2e monsters were any fun in an actual fight, but they were interesting encounters. I also wouldn't pretend that I'd treat 4e's monsters as much more than combat toys, but they are dang fine combat toys.

If you make a D&D monster just about one of those things, it's not actually doing a very good job of being a D&D monster, for all people who play D&D.
I really don't get this. You could use 4e monsters any way you want, just like 5e. Let's also be realistic, even in 5e,90 percent of the rules are about combat. Ime people decided 4e was only about combat, even though it still had all the same classes and monsters. Even though there were literally rules for skill challenges, which weren't combat.... Not that those rules were perfect.... But what other DnD had that?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
4E feels like a video game because it has roles for its classes. Having to be a Leader or Striker instead of being a Controlling Fighter or a Leader Wizard was something a lot of people didn't like. Yes, you could use feats and powers and whatever to change this, but at a default, many playing TTRPG don't want to feel pigeon-holed.
Which is extremely frustrating, because that is like saying that having departments in a university makes a person "pigeon-holed" because they start off with physics classes and math classes and why can't they just take universal classes that are whatever subject they feel like?!?

...because you can do that. They're called electives, and every student is expected to take a lot of them. Some enterprising students even double major.

Acting like the existence of a physics department is somehow bad for learning or makes learning impossible is just...wrong. Flat out wrong.

And roles are exactly the same on that front. They do not, and never did, "pigeonhole" anything. Ever.
 
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