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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
If you've ever tried reading a book in a foreign language (that you have learned to some degree), you are engaging much more consciously with the rules of that language than with your native language(s). Even with your native language, particularly literary genres, and literature from particular times and cultures, have their norms that may not be things you are fluent with.

Except for the very, very lucky, perhaps, RPG rules are like foreign languages on some level to us all. You can strip to some agreed minimum, of course, but I'm not going to say anything about that, that D. Vincent Baker hasn't already said quite well.
Thank you. That is precisely what I was going for. I even considered using the word "translate" at multiple points.

You always have to translate between game-rule things (rolling a die and observing its value, performing arithmetic on numbers or comparing two numbers, writing down information, consulting reference manuals, etc.) and mental-experience things (landing a telling blow, recovering from injuries or succeeding at a task, adding an item to your pack, blowing up your enemies with a spell, etc.) Because that translation always occurs, must occur so long as one is in fact playing the game, it is not only unwise but actually damaging to the play-experience to try to excise absolutely all rule-to-fiction or fiction-to-rule translation. Doing so severely damages the rules in ways that necessarily detract from the overall experience.

Instead, we have to consider where the appropriate mean is between the extremes of pure rules with no fiction whatsoever, and pure fiction with no rules whatsoever. That mean may not be a single fixed point for all possible situations, even within a single game. Combat is notoriously much more rules-heavy than non-combat in all D&D-alike games, for example, which is not true of a variety of other systems. Having AC (and its quirks), attack rolls and hit bonuses, separate attack and damage rolls (again, with the quirks that come with that, e.g. you crit and roll snake eyes on your dice, making the attack more disappointing than an average regular hit), hit points, etc., etc. All of these things require translation between rules-space and fiction-space, to some degree.

Now, it is quite possible for someone to become very, very comfortable with a particular rules-element. That comfort is not part of the rules, nor part of the fiction. It is simply due to exposure and familiarity. When one has grown very used to a particular thing, its absence becomes noteworthy.

This is very important, because it's a big part of my theory on a lot of this stuff for many players who reacted badly to 4e: The problem wasn't that the rules wouldn't let them roleplay, it wasn't that the rules were actually bad at what they did or were even all that far off from what any other edition of D&D has done. The key problem was that the rules felt unfamiliar, and in feeling unfamiliar, players responded by clamming up. I have seen so many people claim that 4e doesn't let them roleplay at all, despite the fact that the rules actually, officially REWARD roleplay in a way 3e never did! I examined how these folks played 4e and it was shocking. The exact same people who would normally be effusive, dynamic, wheeling-and-dealing, etc., etc.--all the things we expect of a D&D player--become incredibly over-cautious, hidebound, never try things, never question things, never even attempt to change a situation. I am absolutely convinced that this is because they believed they couldn't, because they weren't comfortable with the rules being different. Different rules meant they couldn't trust that what they wanted to do would work--so they assumed it wouldn't work, even though that's exactly the opposite of what the 4e rules direct the DM to do.

This is a huge part of why I argue that presentation, presentation, presentation (plus the whole Pathfinder thing) is why 4e struggled so hard. Folks believed that the 4e rules were "everything not permitted is forbidden," when they were actually much closer to "everything not forbidden is permitted." That's what exception-based design is for; the rules tell you how things generally work, and the exceptions tell you when you can give the rules a big ol' middle finger. We've seen in this very thread how folks knowingly play 4e in a way that makes it less fun...even though the books don't tell you to do that, because to them, that was the "feel" of the rules. I 100% blame that feel on the fact that the rules looked and seemed like they were totally alien, and thus treacherous ground, to be avoided or strictly monitored at all times, lest you be caught by surprise and screwed over.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Actually designing classes with multiple roles if classes shared powers would be easy

The fighter would choose between getting a Mark or Damage boost at level 1.

Ranger would get a Hunters Quarry that dealt bonus damage or a slow.
Let's just say I'm very, very, very, very, very skeptical about this proposal, and the horrible weakness (or, rarely, brokenness) of most of the cross-role subclasses in 4e (and, to an extent, in 5e as well, despite its lack of formal roles) reinforces this belief.
 

Let's just say I'm very, very, very, very, very skeptical about this proposal, and the horrible weakness (or, rarely, brokenness) of most of the cross-role subclasses in 4e (and, to an extent, in 5e as well, despite its lack of formal roles) reinforces this belief.
So it's perfect for people who want more class flexibility and are fine sacrificing balance to do so??
 



Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Let's just say I'm very, very, very, very, very skeptical about this proposal, and the horrible weakness (or, rarely, brokenness) of most of the cross-role subclasses in 4e (and, to an extent, in 5e as well, despite its lack of formal roles) reinforces this belief.
If you say so...
Doesn't mean it can't be done.

And it has the added benefit of slowing the release schedule.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So it's perfect for people who want more class flexibility and are fine sacrificing balance to do so??
"Sacrificing balance" does not even begin to describe how terrible the 4e Binder was, nor how schizophrenic and largely incompetent the Berserker was. It doesn't justify the 5e Bladesinger being almost hegemonically the best tank in the entire game (so long as they can do their blade song in every combat, anyway), nor the Banneret being an absolutely garbage substitute for the Warlord. (Ever notice how they never reprinted Banneret? Hmm, I wonder why!) It doesn't justify the Beast Master Ranger or Champion being absolutely terrible.

Doesn't mean it can't be done.

And it has the added benefit of slowing the release schedule.
That is the last thing I ever want 5e to do. The release schedule for 4e was fast (though people also get upset about it not being fast enough...again, gotta love the catch-22s), I recognize that. But the release schedule for 5e is absolutely glacial, it's geologic time for God's sake.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That is the last thing I ever want 5e to do. The release schedule for 4e was fast (though people also get upset about it not being fast enough...again, gotta love the catch-22s), I recognize that. But the release schedule for 5e is absolutely glacial, it's geologic time for God's sake
4e was too fast. And it needed to be since every build, style, and tone was tied to a suite of powers.

5e is too slow. It took too long to hit the notes people desired and only recently got to its creative stage only to halt with the 2024 core
 

Yet funnily enough when I suggest that the primary issue with 4e was presentation and not substance, I’ve had people flat out block me for it.

🤷
The D&D 4 rules presentation worked pretty great at the game table, in my opinion. Everything was pretty well layouted, even without physical power cards it was easy to look up your abilites, and overall the rules were organized well.

But a good organization is not neccessarily something that makes an inspiring read. The class description is pretty bland to read, only having a few unique things. The rest is all in the suite of powers, and reading that isn't all that evocative.
I think D&D isn't the only D&D or D&D derivative rule system with that problem, but most limit this problem to its spellcasters. If you don't know the Wizard spell list, you don't really know what a wizard might be able to do in game, how they play and feel.
I have that problem with Pathfinder (2e), for example, because I really don't know their divine, arcane, occult and primal spell lists, though I can guesstimate some stuff from my D&D experience.

I think a stronger D&D 4 could probably have benefitted from some more abilities for each class not described in the form of powers. With some clever "trickery", maybe it could have been done that still most of the combat abilities were described in powers, but the "narrative" abilities and their story place would be in the class body, not its power appendix, so to speak.
In D&D 4, a lot of the story stuff is between the lines, or linked to Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, but that doesn't help you when choosing a class, and it doesn't affect the early game much.
 

Staffan

Legend
Actually designing classes with multiple roles if classes shared powers would be easy

The fighter would choose between getting a Mark or Damage boost at level 1.

Ranger would get a Hunters Quarry that dealt bonus damage or a slow.
While the question is at this point highly theoretical given that the game has been dead for 10-15 years, I don't think this would be a good idea. The striker-Fighter should have different powers than a striker-Rogue.
 

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