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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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Retreater

Legend
Just wrapped up a pretty dreadful session of 4e tonight.
Had a 6th level encounter for 6 7th level characters. It dragged on. And on. The main target got taken out at the beginning of Round 2. The worthless mooks were boring to play and not much of a threat. I told the group that they could intimidate them into a surrender, but the party wanted to leave no prisoners.
The second fight had a 10th level elite enemy. And it completely demolished them.
I'm running the highest reviewed official 4e adventure. I just don't get it.
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
Just wrapped up a pretty dreadful session of 4e tonight.
Had a 6th level encounter for 6 7th level characters. It dragged on. And on. The main target got taken out at the beginning of Round 2. The worthless mooks were boring to play and not much of a threat. I told the group that they could intimidate them into a surrender, but the party wanted to leave no prisoners.
The second fight had a 10th level elite enemy. And it completely demolished them.
I'm running the highest reviewed official 4e adventure. I just don't get it.
Which module? And which fight? Did the PCs get a short rest or an extended rest between the fights?

And what monster math are you using? There was a change in the game’s basic math with the release of MM3. It made fights go quicker by reducing monster HP and increasing monster damage.

You could also simply narrate the PCs sweeping through the mooks once it’s obvious the fight’s over.
 
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Undrave

Legend
This is just another manifestation of the mundanity problem. The aesthetic of the "mundane" character in D&D is fixed to general systems. If marking were a generic action in a combat chapter, Fighter abilities were written as riders to it, or perhaps if it was expressed inverse, as the Fighter claiming space around them or protecting an ally it would have gone down a lot easier. 4e was really useful in demarcating the popular boundaries of the Fighter's aesthetic, as annoying as it clearly was to learn what precisely those limitations were in many other player's minds.
That's always the problem isn't it? Give something unique to the Fighter and it's always "Why can't MY character have that too? You're just a Fighter!". The Fighter isn't allowed to have anything unique or special (I'm convinced some Feats were at one point Fighters class features, like advanced Fighting styles and stuff) because he's just the Fighter. He's just the guy who swings a sword and has to stay that way because newbies will never want to be anything else than just hitting with a sword.

Fighter is such a generic term that, for (too) many people, it's basically a short hand for 'normal guy', it's practically a non-class, a DEFAULT state of in-universe people who know how to use weapons. Maybe they should just ditch the name Fighter and call him the Weaponmaster maybe people would respect him more?

I've talked about it before, but there is this idea that a level 1 Wizard has studied the arcane for years and is already a specialist, while a level 1 Fighter is just some farm hand who picked up a sword, less than a regular town guard we are generally told are NOT actually Fighters. Or maybe an infantry grunt if you're generous. "You need skills, you need to be special, to be a Wizard. Any peasant can be a Fighter it's that easy.". But the two classes are presented as equal in the book! Being one or the other is the same cost and there is no prerequisite! And moving from level 1 to level 20 is the same ammount of XP for everybody... There is no justification that a level of Wizard is worth more than a level of Fighter in terms of effort OR power.

In short: Let the Fighter have unique abilities!
 
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Retreater

Legend
Which module? And which fight? Did the PCs get a short rest or an extended rest between the fights?

And what monster math are you using? There was a change in the game’s basic math with the release of MM3. It made fights go quicker by reducing monster HP and increasing monster damage.

You could also simply narrate the PCs sweeping through the mooks once it’s obvious the fight’s over.
Madness at Gardmore Abbey - and I'm pretty sure it uses the most updated monster math since it was a later release.
The first fight (at the gatehouse) was after an extended rest. The second (entering the wizards tower) was after a short rest. But they can't really expect an extended rest before every battle.
I did eventually narrate the end because I got so bored. There were still 3 enemies remaining. I was making overtures of the mooks surrendering when there were 6 remaining.
 


Pedantic

Legend
Fighter is such a generic term that, for (too) many people, it's basically a short hand for 'normal guy', it's practically a non-class, a DEFAULT state of in-universe people who know how to use weapons. Maybe they should just ditch the name Fighter and call him the Weaponmaster maybe people would respect him more?
This is a point of no small disagreement, and I'm sure you can find any number of Fighter threads...but yeah, this is precisely the problem. The archetype the Fighter represents is both too broad and too narrow. It's defined by mundanity, so suffers from being the yardstick against which other exceptional abilities are compared, and it's expected to cover such a broad swathe of content (seen clearly in the "how do I be an archer Fighter?" problem in 4e) that it doesn't have any room to be exceptional by drawing on archetypal abilities. A Weaponmaster is a good example, but even the existing martial+ archetypes that D&D has, the Paladin, the Ranger and the Barbarian are all fighter+ something, fighter+divinity, fighter+nature powers, fighter+supernatural anger, and get the cachet they need to have exceptional power from that bonus bit.

Weaponmaster is probably a decent call, because arguably D&D did have better fighter abilities at some points, they were just all attached to magic swords. "Guy who finds magic swords" would be a very D&D way out of the mundanity trap.
 

Just wrapped up a pretty dreadful session of 4e tonight.
Had a 6th level encounter for 6 7th level characters. It dragged on. And on. The main target got taken out at the beginning of Round 2. The worthless mooks were boring to play and not much of a threat. I told the group that they could intimidate them into a surrender, but the party wanted to leave no prisoners.
The second fight had a 10th level elite enemy. And it completely demolished them.
I'm running the highest reviewed official 4e adventure. I just don't get it.

There is so much help out there on this subject Retreater. You just need to do some keyword searches and you should get a cavalcade of help. Look at some of my PBPs on here. Those should help. Meanwhile:

* 6 characters is far, far too many for any game (imo) and its basically a killshot for 4e. I would not GM any 4e game with more than 4 characters and optimally I would prefer 3 (which is the number for most all of my games, particularly 4e). If you have to GM for 6 players, 4e is not the game. Play something else.

* Spend some (at least 1 level worth) of your encounter budget on Hazards (which have 0 HP) that serve to eliven the battlefield array by amplifying Team Monster yet also being an interesting asset/danger which Team PC will want to interact with (eg; "force move Team Monster into").

* Reward movement, demand movement, instigate movement via interesting battlefield arrays (Hindering Terrain, central features, things to stunt with, the use of Controllers and enemies with Forced Movement, Fantastic Terrain that can be interacted with via Minor Action for a Buff which then exhausts the terrain).

* Make ample use of protected Artillery Minions that are hard to get to due to battlefield array (Blocking Terrain, Hindering Terrain, Altitude, Cover, or Soldiers) or Skirmisher Minions who can kite.

* Think about the game layer when you're generating combats first and foremost. Interesting decision points (tactical, strategic, thematic) are the beating heart of the 4e combat engine. If your personal sense of a narrow causality is how you're generating combat dynamics, its going to fall flat. Think gonzo tropes, think player character themes/goals, and think "what sort of an encounter budget and roster and array would make for a rich decision-space for each player."

* Embed an appropriate thematic Skill Challenge alternative Win Cons (like escort PCs or get to x square before the end of y round, etc) with special attention paid to the action economy of actions. Combat shouldn't always be about reducing Team Monster to 0.

* Demand your players pay freaking attention. Use a 1 minute egg timer for on-turn actions. They should be paying attention and have an action declaration ready the moment their turn comes up. If they're looking at their phones, being disrespectful to you and the other players, or generally not paying attention? Punt them to the freaking moon and bask in the glory of praise from every TTRPG ever who has had to deal with that sort of disrespectful, selfish behavior. But be sad for the moon because now it has to deal with it.

* Develop a script for your own bad guys that you can refer to quickly to resolve your turns if you're struggling with your own turns.

* Conflict ratio should be about 5 Skill Challenges to 2 Combats.

* Everyone should be playing goal-forward. Players should know what goals their PCs have and they should be put on an index card as a Minor or Major Quest that everyone can access (and should access as a refresher; perhaps as a beginning of session prologue the players each read aloud their pending Quests).
 


Retreater

Legend
@Manbearcat, I'm running one of the best reviewed adventures in the edition. It should be pretty well balanced. This was after my own designs kept failing - so I decided to leave the writing to the pros.
We have 6 players. The official recommendation by WotC was 5. Our 6th player ends up missing about half the encounters because of her work schedule.
 

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