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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
Has anyone ever ran or been in a skill challenge in 5E? I haven't done it myself, but when I played in a Dragonlance campaign the DM ran a skill challenge to infiltrate a fort seized by the Red Dragon Army. I've also seen a number of 3rd party products that used skill challenges.
Yeah, I use them sometimes. Not quite the "X successes before Y failures" part.

I do it more of what I call a "Three Round Challenge" where I go around the table three times (these wouldn't be six-second rounds, but whatever amount of time is appropriate to the non-combat challenge) and put ticks in a success or failure column based on what players do or how well they roll (though there are narrative results to every single check, some of which lead to the use of other skills to mitigate for). At any rate, after three times around the table (so to speak), the scene ends with the goal achieved or not (usually achieved but with a narrative setback - it depends on if its being used for something where success is required for the game to continue in a certain direction, if so, it's more about how success is achieved, rather than if it happens or not). At any rate, it's simply a matter of "Which stack is better - success or failure" at the end of the third round. Some player's turns could result in neither (and could involve or not involve checks actually rolled).

EDIT - I reread what I wrote. Man, does it ramble. I hope that you can understand what I mean.
 
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Undrave

Legend
You can have multiple encounters per short rest, my monk had several ki points they could spend with the ability to do a variety of things and so on.
That's a fair difference. But also, I don't think that it would have changed much if Encounter powers had been called 'Short Rest Powers', but might have shifted the perspective.
 

Oofta

Legend
Has anyone ever ran or been in a skill challenge in 5E? I haven't done it myself, but when I played in a Dragonlance campaign the DM ran a skill challenge to infiltrate a fort seized by the Red Dragon Army. I've also seen a number of 3rd party products that used skill challenges.

I use skill challenge like structure in games on a fairly regular basis, but I run them similar to chases. So there are obstacles to overcome, and I make suggestions about what they could do and of course they can make other suggestions.

What it isn't, is X successes before Y failures. It may be that the bad guys are getting catching up, you take damage from falling rocks and so on.

I try to make it dynamic and interesting, using a variety of skills and abilities. But skill challenges as presented in 4E? Nah.
 

Undrave

Legend
Sometimes I feel like we played different versions of the game. I just Googled 4E skill challenge t make sure i was remembering correctly and, for example, it tells you

"Running the challenge itself is not all that different from running a combat encounter. Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge."

You tell them they're in a challenge. You let them know what the primary skills are. They absolutely know they're in a skill challenge. People learn pretty quickly how they work if the DM doesn't simply tell them. Worst thing for me is that it's basically reducing this kind of activity to just another combat encounter where the only thing that matters is success or failure of a d20 check.
I thought I was clear I was just expressing my opinion on Skill Challenge? In my experience you're right, running it too formally just feels like another combat encounter, that's why I suggested not drawing too much attention to the structure. For what it's worth, my PC actually enjoyed realizing they were in a skill challenge after a few rolls and got more serious in their attempt to engage the challenge in front of them.

I'll admit a good skill challenge is really hard to do and it's a concept that was revisited multiple times because of that. The expression "An attempt was made" was basically invented for Skill Challenges. Good idea, terrible incarnation.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
YES. THEY. COULD.

I am so sick of hearing this claim. They could! Feats, powers, themes, PPs, and EDs could all make that entirely functional. Paladin, for example, got tons of support for being a Leader or Striker, and all Defenders were already adjacent to the Controller role (plus, the two-marks thing actually made some Paladins surprisingly good at minion-clearing.)

Having a role meant you would definitely have the basic tools to fill that role. It didn't mean you couldn't do anything else ever. It just meant you wouldn't have the tools to do it right away. You'd have to seek them out. They were there. More and more were offered with time.
It takes a lot of resources to shift a class into a role they weren't designed for .

This is a good thing.
This was a designed point.

But Heinsoo said that they had a list of "D&D thing that people disliked" that they sought out to fix.

Classes effortlessly getting effective into multiple roles was likely high on the list.

Roles weren't just to chase the roles in D&D. It was to prevent Zillas and Bat Families.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Roles weren't just to chase the roles in D&D. It was to prevent Zillas and Bat Families.
It was also to prevent the 3e Bard, which everyone thought were super weak and dumb because they didn't know how to operate them due to control being an unfamiliar thing for D&D at the time.

Almost like explaining how a class was designed to work might help players make choices concerning those classes. But nah, using helpful terminology is a World of Warcraft thing.
 

Staffan

Legend
Avoid setting changes (or at least more than very, very minor ones), give the books another year, (apparently) don't just nudge the HP of all monsters up a whole bunch(???), and emphasize presentation, presentation, presentation in the final publication. Avoid the GSL, avoid the murder-suicide that destroyed all future potential of the digital tools, avoid Silverlight which further strangled whatever minimal tools potential remained. Brace for the financial meltdown and focus on low-cost, easy-use books.
Yes, this. Although, some of those aspects are kind of hard to control. I mean, I don't think whomever hired the lead on the digital tools intended for things to go the way they did.
Oh...and don't write such absolute $#!+ early adventures. Seriously, Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows are horrible rotten garbage I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, and they made a terrible first showing for a brand-new edition.
Most editions have had problems with bad early adventures. The problems are two-fold:

1. The adventures are written simultaneously with rules development, which means things in the rules change in ways that alter the way the adventure works and no-one catches these differences. For example, my understanding is that the opening encounter in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, where the party fights eight kobolds (which given the kobold Pack Attack ability is incredibly lethal), was a victim of some rule change or other.

2. Even with playtesting, it's hard to say how a rule set actually works. There's usually a lot of stuff that emerges from how different parts of the rules interact that the designers never intended or foresaw. And that's the kind of thing you only understand with experience.
Without the GSL, Paizo almost certainly never makes PF, but instead makes more 4e content. Lacking a rallying flag and having fewer complaints (because of the lack of setting changes), the grumbles remain mostly just that--grumbles.
If the only thing different would be the GSL, I don't think so. There's a retrospective post on Paizo's site about how once the Paizo folks got the chance to play in 4e demos, they decided that that was not a system for which they wanted to make stuff. It's possible that a more permissible license might have changed their minds, in much the same way that they're dipping their toes in 5e, but they wanted no part of 4e.

I don't think setting alone was a major factor. A huge amount of the objection to 4e was tonal. The rules didn't just look like a wargame, they read like one also. Some of the Essentials direction was better, but they needed to go even further. Classes should not have looked so similar to each other. They didn't focus enough on making each class unique, and hard coding roles was a mistake. Your Wizard CAN be a controller, but that label shouldn't be there and the players should choose the role for that particular PC without the intentional and explicit "pulling back the curtain" on that level of design. There was just too much of a gamification tone to the rules.
I disagree that the focus on roles was a mistake, though in retrospect they might have made a more subtle version.

The issue is that the classical D&D party is a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, and a rogue/thief. The fighter hits things and protects their allies, the wizard blows things up and solves many non-combat challenges with their magic, the cleric heals the party and fixes their problems, and the rogue scouts and deals with traps and stuff. The problem is that if you replace the rogue with a bard, you now no longer have a trapfinder. Replace the cleric with a druid (in 3e or earlier), and you lose out on a lot of healing. The fighter is probably the most interchangeable, because there's really little difference between the fighter, barbarian, paladin, and ranger hitting things.

So what roles did was to identify certain tasks that a party needed to do, and assigned them to various interchangeable classes. That meant that 4e was the first edition where making a cleric-less party was perfectly viable without using workarounds like stocking up on healing potions and such. Part of this was also to move the non-combat function of some classes into systems that were less tied to classes, such as rituals and skills.

That said, I recognize that hardcoding roles into classes caused some problems for the class fantasy. The typical example here is the archer fighter. The 4e fighter is bad at ranged combat. It is at best a backup option for them. The intent is that martial archers would be rangers, but this is poorly communicated, plus it automatically associates archers with nature stuff to some degree (even if the 4e ranger is much less wilderness-oriented than previous editions – they are very much "civilized person venturing into the wild" rather than a "native".

I think the solution here would have been to tie roles to subclasses rather than the whole classes. This is sort of what Essentials did. So you could have the Slayer fighter who focuses on dealing massive damage with big weapons, and the Knight fighter who defends their companions with skillful shield use. You could have an Ice Wizard focusing on debuffing and controlling the battlefield, and a Fire Wizard who just nukes the crap out of their foes. This would allow players to keep the identity of being "a fighter" without necessarily being a defender, while still highlighting the need for someone else to pick up the defender slack.

When it comes to 4e and the Forgotten Realms specifically, they nuked the setting. NEVER nuke the setting.
Very much so.

Generally speaking, a setting has some people who like it and some who don't. If you nuke the setting, that will turn off a lot of the people who like it the way it is, and probably not attract the people who don't. The only times when a setting reboot is (or at least can be) a good thing is if the setting has been mothballed for a while.

Healing Surges are probably the most frequent cost to a group's failure of a Skill Challenge. For the player who contributed a Diplomacy check (or something else not physical), he or she will lose a Healing Surge just the same as someone who failed an Endurance or Athletics check.

But the costs are the same for the entire party, regardless of the skill that is rolled. You could lose healing surges, you could generate 2 extra guards at the next fight, etc. The skill that is rolled rarely matters in the consequences of the Challenge.
Those are consequences of losing the overall skill challenge, though – not of a single failed roll. It's not "I failed a Diplomacy check so I lose a healing surge". It's "My lack of manners annoyed the Fair Folk so they kept leading us astray in the woods, which exhausted us so we each lost a healing surge."

That said, I think skill challenges in general are better handled in The Troubleshooters. There, the Director determines three to five skills involved in a challenge (with player input) and has the party attempt those, with the overall level of success depending on how many of those skill checks were successful.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Has anyone ever ran or been in a skill challenge in 5E? I haven't done it myself, but when I played in a Dragonlance campaign the DM ran a skill challenge to infiltrate a fort seized by the Red Dragon Army. I've also seen a number of 3rd party products that used skill challenges.
Yeah. I've been a player with them and run them myself. I don't do 4E skill challenges straight. I do them as clocks or countdowns. Way easier and smoother.
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
I am fairly sure that the 4E rules said something about it being possible to bypass the skill challenge if it could be easily circumvented
If they "short circuit" the skill challenge with clever thinking or spells, they beat it. Simple as.
Okay? then they can just use bypass the challenge by spending the ability to fly.

I know that can be done. My point was just that my players preferred to approach these situations without the structure of a skill challenge. There was no point in me bothering to learn all the primary and secondary skills or maximum number of times they could be used, because the players just didn't want to do it that way. They also didn't want to be forced to participate as a group. They preferred to let whoever had an obvious strength in the situation they were presented with make all the rolls, with, at most, one person helping out to grant advantage.

I tried skill challenges on that group three or four times before I gave up. The forest navigation challenge was in "Grasp of the Mantled Citadel" (Dungeon 171). The one that finally made me give up was the "Crossing the City of Brass" challenge in "Test of Fire" (Dungeon 174). I don't remember exactly what they did--it's a few years ago now--but I do remember that they stopped roleplaying altogether and the whole thing became very dry. I also remember one of the players saying "Look, if you're going to set this up like a board game, we're going to play it like a board game." That was when I decided not to bother with skill challenges for them anymore.

I think skill challenges are a cool idea in theory, and I'm sure they work fine at some tables. But for this group of players and me as the DM, they don't work.
 

Oofta

Legend
Like a lot of things 4E, I liked the concept of skill challenges when I first read them. But in practice? It seemed like they were part of what hurt free form play.
 

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