New Matrix trailer

[barsoomcore]

I thought the initial shock was pretty clear and was only made more so by the fact that he dropped to his knees and puked.

We have different opinions on what constitutes a convincing performance. Fair enough.

Yes. There is some "goofball sophomoric spouting" in the movie. I also happen to think that their are some lines in there that can carry some legitamate philosophical weight. I mean, they aren't spouting Shakespear, but I didn't go to see that.

Well, you said "The Matrix is for the deeper minded people". I said that may be true, but you hadn't shown any evidence to support that suggestion. I offered the fact that I can recognize "GSS" for what it is as evidence that maybe I'm just as deep-minded as the next guy, and thus if the film doesn't appeal to me, then maybe it DOESN'T appeal to the deeper minded people.

What I'm getting at is we have opposing views -- not only on the quality of the movie (which is purely subjective) but on the reasons for the movie's popularity. My assertion is that the movie appeals primarily because it offers a fantasy of power. It appeals to people who find power fantasies attractive. The movie became extremely popular because its fantasy is well-calculated for appeal (keeping the main figure as personality-less possible, minimizing any potential need for responsibility, etc). Your assertion was that the movie appeals primarily because of its special effects and intellectual content (I'm extrapolating from comments of yours about higher calibre of person or the deeper minded people).

I think you're wrong. Not about whether or not you like the Matrix -- I'm sure that you do. Not even about why YOU like it -- if it made you think or whatever, then great. I certainly have no reason to doubt you. But I think you're wrong about the primary appeal of the movie.

The reason I said you didn't "get" the Matrix comes from the fact that you sound like you where looking for something else in the movie. The Matrix was a special effects powered action movie wrapped in a nice little pseudophilisophical package to hold it all together.

Well, I don't know exactly what I was looking for but what I got were dull fight scenes, overused special effects that only served as distraction, bad acting, bad dialogue and an irritating pretension that seemed to assume I was too stupid to notice the lameness of it all.

And so, as I have said, I wondered why such a bad movie became so popular. Now we each have our theories. I don't think yours is a very good theory for reasons I've already gone into, but primarily concern the idea that the effects were not as innovative as the hype machine would have us think, and that the intellectual content was pretty much non-existent, despite the high-falutin' phraseology of the figures in the movie.

 

[John Crichton]

No, it could have been something different. To do as you suggest would have made it a different style of movie which is clearly not what they were trying to do.

Being different is implied when I said that it could have been more. By the writers having the movie end like it did (not knowing for certain that they would have a chance to make more films) and throwing all substance and thought out the window is no excuse for not following up what they did in the first half of the film.

The style would have still been the same as their still would have been plenty of action in the movie. The first half introduced interesting concepts while the second half ignored most of them. If they didn't try and be cerebral at all or just hinted at it then the ending would have fit just fine as it was brainless.

What The Matrix showed me in the first movie was entertaining and introduced some very interesting concepts. I was impressed but at the same time I saw incredible potential for more. You don't have to agree with me, but it is simply my opinion. If being more would have changed the way the movie was made or the intensions of the producers and writers, so be it. But it is what is and I know why it ended up that way. Doesn't change the fact that it could have been more, in my eyes.

 

[barsoomcore]

This is just a personal thing I'm sure, but without a reason, it is very hard for me to suspend disbelief.

Honestly, I'm not just picking on you. I swear. But what you said here points to a massive difference in how you and I come to movies.

I don't need explanations for physical things. In this movie, people can fly, okay, they can fly. Superman can fly cause the sun is yellow. Sure, whatever. Fine. I'm perfectly happy to watch stories that take place in worlds where the physical laws are not identical to our own, and I don't need the rules explained to me beforehand.

What I need to be convinced about are the emotional things. If a character loves another, I need to be convinced. I need to believe. My fundamental problems with both CTHD and The Matrix are based on these sorts of issues. Why does Trinity kiss Neo at the end of the Matrix? It's the stupidest thing ever. Why does anyone not just slap Zhang Zi-yi's character into the middle of next week the first time she opens her mouth? Why would anyone like her or trust her or even want to be anywhere near her?

If the emotional engine is running good, I don't care about the physical. This is why I love so many wuxia movies, because they invest so much into the emotional lives of the characters, who are always getting their parents killed, or their sons tortured or whatever.

Very different, you and I.

Again, it kind of points to identification versus sympathy. In order to think of yourself as LIKE Neo you need to know the rules of the world Neo plays in. Whereas in order to care about Briggite Lin's character in Dragon Inn all you need to do is watch her for ten minutes.

Interesting.

 

[RangerWickett]

The best movie I've seen that featured kung-fu-esque wirework was Death to Smoochie.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

My fundamental problems with both CTHD and The Matrix are based on these sorts of issues. Why does Trinity kiss Neo at the end of the Matrix? It's the stupidest thing ever. Why does anyone not just slap Zhang Zi-yi's character into the middle of next week the first time she opens her mouth? Why would anyone like her or trust her or even want to be anywhere near her?

Trinity kisses Neo at the end of the movie because her love makes her believe that he is the ONE. The Matrix establishes very early that that world is based on the power of belief. It’s one of the concepts of Buddism, I forget exactly which type, but (to paraphrase) it says that reality doesn’t exist out side of perception and because of that, reality is what you percieve it to be. The Oracle told her that she would fall in love with that ONE. She was drawn to/ in love with him from the beginning of the movie. In the sequence immediately after the opening credit when Cypher and Trinity have their little talk.

Cypher: Yeah.
Trinity: Is everything in place?
Cypher: You weren't supposed to relieve me.
Trinity: I know, but I felt like taking your shift.
Cypher: You like him, don't you? You like watching him.
Trinity: Don't be ridiculous.
Cypher: We're going to kill him, do you understand that?
Trinity: Morpheus believes he is The One.
Cypher: Do you?
Trinity: It doesn't matter what I believe.
Cypher: You don't, do you?
Trinity: Did you hear that?
Cypher: Hear what?
Trinity: Are you sure this line is clean?

Even still she still had her doubts that he was the ONE, but regardless of that she still loved him and when it looked like he was lost her that’s when she was finally able to admit that and it’s that admission, that admission of love is what revives Neo. It makes him believe that he is the ONE, otherwise he’d be dead. When he comes back he’s finally able to see the Matrix for what it is. He believes BECAUSE of her love for him. It’s a little corny but it doesn’t come out of nowhere. Everything is established in the structure of the story from jump.

You see for all the people out there who claim the depth of the story rings hollow, for you it does. However if you recognize the concepts and the bits and pieces of philosophy that are in place in the story it becomes a little more than an empty exercise in wire-fu, martial arts and special effects. Because I was able to see ideas that I’d read about while in school I was able to appreciate it a little more. While the average person who doesn’t, well, doesn’t. A film student can tell you why the GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY is a ground breaking film, but to the average person it’s just some silent movie. A flim student can tell you why CITIZEN KANE left the mark that it did on cinema or why the french new wave was so important and why it was so fresh. The average person cant. Not holding THE MATRIX up to any of those films but if it’s there and you recognize it it’s something more, if you don’t then it’s not.


>>Why does anyone not just slap Zhang Zi-yi's character into the middle of next week the first time she opens her mouth? Why would anyone like her or trust her or even want to be anywhere near her?<<


Well the first time that she opens her mouth she’s in the guise of the young aristocrats daughter, submissive, yet curious and uses that to win the freindship of Yu Shu Lien, Michelle Yeoh’s character. Which is why, despite the obvious havoc that she causes, Shu Lien tries to resolve the issue of the stolen sword as discreetly as possible right up until their fight near the end of the movie. She’s the classic petulant child, she’s not corrupt even Li Mu Bai recognizes this when he duels with her for the second time after she returns the Green Destiny. The character has redeeming qualities, her respect and affection for both Jade Fox and Shu Lien. She cared enough about Jade Fox to try and spare her feelings about surpassing her in skill and not understanding the training manual. She obviously loves the desert bandit, Dark Cloud. As I said before there’s a subtext to her characters actions that needs to be watched in respect to what’s going on around her.

Wow. Didn’t know that I’d gone on that long.

 

[barsoomcore]

ShinHakkaider: What I'm saying is that I was never convinced that Trinity loved Neo. I know the script tried to lay it out, but I never once bought it. The performances did not convince me.

Look, I've tried to make clear that I GOT the ideas the Matrix was holding up as profound. I just disagree with the notion that they are profound. Or even interesting. If we want to get into discussions of Buddhism we can do that, but maybe this thread isn't the right place. Suffice to say that the concept of belief and reality you've articulated is better expressed in Jonathan Livingstone Seagull than any Buddhist text.

I appreciate you spending so much time explaining this stuff to me, but none of this is new to me. These stories worked for you, and did not work for me. Clearly we disagree on some points, and that's fine.

 

[Staffan]

Of course, that Britney Spears fan could be a rocket scientist for all I know, but it in my experience, this is very rarely the case.

You'd be surprised. Just look at http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm

 

[John Crichton]

ShinHakkaider: What I'm saying is that I was never convinced that Trinity loved Neo. I know the script tried to lay it out, but I never once bought it. The performances did not convince me.

I had this same issue. If it was a "Love Conquers All" or "Love Inspires Greatness" theme they were going for they should have given more than a few lines to it. They way it was played out seemed like a distant afterthough or a loophole, if you will. I can understand two people being in love and making a connection but since that was never really hammered home in the film, it had little to no impact for me and soured the ending. Perhaps the script required more subtle acting and the pair just didn't pull it off. But for whatever reason, it just didn't work for me. Not compared to the rest of the film...

 

[Welverin]

Being different is implied when I said that it could have been more.

Sorry, I should have said that it could have been a different type of movie, which is what it would have been had they gone in the direction you wanted. I'd say it's pretty clear The Matrix is and was meant to be an action movie, and to say it failed to live up to it's potential (or criticize it) for the very things that define what type of movie it is (the action scenes) is ridiculous. While it?s a valid reason to dislike a movie, to whatever degree, I don?t think it?s a valid reason to judge it on. It be like me saying Chicago failed because it ends with a big musical number (ok, I?m just assuming that it does since I didn?t see, but it?s a musical so it?s a fair bet that it does).

I think that?s all maybe I?ll add more later.

Trinity kisses Neo at the end of the movie because her love makes her believe that he is the ONE.

Yes, but what happens in the movie to make you, or anyone else, believe that she actually loves Neo?

Beyond the fact that Trinity is the female lead, Neo is the male lead, and the script requires that Trinity loves Neo I don't see anything in the movie to establish the fact.

 

[John Crichton]

Sorry, I should have said that it could have been a different type of movie, which is what it would have been had they gone in the direction you wanted. I'd say it's pretty clear The Matrix is and was meant to be an action movie, and to say it failed to live up to it's potential (or criticize it) for the very things that define what type of movie it is (the action scenes) is ridiculous. While it?s a valid reason to dislike a movie, to whatever degree, I don?t think it?s a valid reason to judge it on. It be like me saying Chicago failed because it ends with a big musical number (ok, I?m just assuming that it does since I didn?t see, but it?s a musical so it?s a fair bet that it does)

I'm pretty sure the Wachowski Bros. didn't set out to make just an action movie. I'm sure they were striving for more and have said as much in interviews. I'm not willing to shoehorn The Matrix into the "Just An Action Movie" category and forget about it. What is showed in the first half was beyond your typical action film. If the definition of action film is that all the non-action scenes set up the action scenes and mean nothing more (which seems to be the case in most action films) then the second half of The Matrix certainly fits the bill.

If you are willing to let the unfulfilled setup of the beginning of the film. The pure wonder and imagination of it was all reduced to a simple fight at the end. That, to me is a waste. To have the concept of twisted reality, modelled after our current world where the producers were able to show us things that were conceptually and visually different from things we have seen before was an accomplishment. If you are willing to let it go, I am totally cool with that. But you cannot convince me that it was just an action film and leave it at that. The setup was too good.