New monster damage expressions - What do they mean for the game?

[Mengu]

So I'm looking at the damage expressions, and I'm looking at a level 10 encounter I had prepped for my level 8 party before taking the new damage expressions into account. The damage expressions on the monsters I'm using (levels 8-10) are:

at-will single target: 1d8+7, 1d6+7, 1d6+7 (ongoing 10), 1d12+5, 1d8+5, 2d6+5, 1d10+1d6+5, 2d10+5
limited single target: 2d8+5 (ongoing 5), 1d8+5+5
limited multi target: 2d8+5, 3d8+5

If I switch to the new damage expressions, the picture will look something like this:

at-will single target: 2d8+9, 2d8+9, 1d6+5? (ongoing 10), 1d12+11, 2d8+9, 2d6+11, 1d10+1d6+8, 2d10+5
limited single target: 2d8+9 (ongoing 5), 2d8+9+10
limited multi target: 2d8+9, 3d8+5

I think the level 10 encounter was going to be hard for them to begin with, because they are likely going into it a bit weathered from previous 3 encounters. I feel like if I do these damage bumps, my players will exhaust all of their resources, and they will probably survive, but there will be a discussion after the encounter.

I have no doubt, the conclusion they will come to is that they need more healing because they are getting the pants beat off them. The paladin will probably say, okay, I'm dumping this junky punching bag of a paladin, and I'll lpay a cleric so we have two leaders to keep us alive. Then rest of the characters will start discussing what to multiclass into for more healing.

I really don't like that direction. Inadequate healing should never be the reason for failure or difficulty in an encounter. And the more damage monsters do, the more healing PC's will look for.

Level+2 encounters have always been hard for my PC's before, and I use Level+3 encounters sparingly. Adopting the new damage expressions would mean I'd start using Level-1 encounters as standard, and probably Level+1 encounters as difficult. I have no problem with this approach, as it will likely result in faster combat.

But I don't think this has been made clear to the DM's out there. A DM who just adapts the new damage expressions and does nothing else, is likely to find that the players are starting to have shorter and shorter adventuring days, and looking for more and more healing, neither of which are beneficial to a "play what you want" approach.

Personally, I will simply consider this update of damage expressions, a suggestion for optimized parties who play 3-encounter delves (or maybe LFR). Because in any other context, at least for the high heroic levels, these damage expressions combined with recommended variation in encounter difficulty seem a little high. I'm afraid they may turn the 6-7 encounter days into a thing of the past because no one's going to have any surges left after encounter 3 or 4, assuming skill challenges haven't cost them any surges.

I will attempt to use lower level encounters with the higher damage expressions to challenge the PC's and see where that takes me. But for high heroic levels, I don't think my players are quite ready for the sticker shock of a level+2 or level+3 encounter where round one, everyone is bloodied, immobilized, dazed, and defenders are down before they go. Best approach for me (and possibly for others like me), maybe to vary the damage expressions up or down based on the needs of the story, the adventure, or the encounter.

For paragon and epic, we've been complaining that monsters don't do enough damage, so things may be a little different. I only have some experience in paragon and none in epic. For instance playing Revenge of the Giants, it did seem a little on the easy side, so the damage bumps may certainly help that particular module. But for home games, I feel the DM typically has enough tools to challenge the PC's, so I'm a little skeptical about the intended impact of the damage expression change verses the actual impact on player behavior.

 

[Jhaelen]

Level+2 encounters have always been hard for my PC's before, and I use Level+3 encounters sparingly. Adopting the new damage expressions would mean I'd start using Level-1 encounters as standard, and probably Level+1 encounters as difficult. I have no problem with this approach, as it will likely result in faster combat.

But I don't think this has been made clear to the DM's out there. A DM who just adapts the new damage expressions and does nothing else, is likely to find that the players are starting to have shorter and shorter adventuring days, and looking for more and more healing, neither of which are beneficial to a "play what you want" approach.
[...]
I will attempt to use lower level encounters with the higher damage expressions to challenge the PC's and see where that takes me. But for high heroic levels, I don't think my players are quite ready for the sticker shock of a level+2 or level+3 encounter where round one, everyone is bloodied, immobilized, dazed, and defenders are down before they go. Best approach for me (and possibly for others like me), maybe to vary the damage expressions up or down based on the needs of the story, the adventure, or the encounter.

I agree with your assessment. I'd definitely tell the players before the encounter that you've switched to the new, higher damage expressions to allow them to adapt by playing more carefully.

If they already felt challenged before, maybe you should wait before using the new damage expressions. No need to fix it if it isn't broken (yet), right?

A level+2 encounter is probably going to be more like a level+4 encounter was before the update, so scaling the encounter level back a bit makes sense.

The thing is, and that's something I've been worried about, pc power increase over levels is not linear, but the damage by level table is completely linear!
There's very noticeable bumps in pc power at levels 11 and 21. This means that encounters are the most challenging right before reaching these levels.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Encounters become a little bit more swingy, not more deadly in general.

I believe wizards thinking is following:

instead of equal level encounters beeing easy and boring (much hp, low damge), level equivalent encounters will now challenge players (much hp, high damage)

This way, the DM doesn´t have to use level +x encounters to challenge players, which meant: a little bit more damage, much more hp...

Now the default difficulty encounter is level +0 and you can go down to level -3 and upt to level +3 which will have a much better balance between damage and hp.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There's very noticeable bumps in pc power at levels 11 and 21. This means that encounters are the most challenging right before reaching these levels.

which could be not a bug but a feature...

 

[Jhaelen]

which could be not a bug but a feature...

I'll be... well, yes, you're right of course!

 

[Abraxas]

I know what it will mean for the group I play with - one encounter and then extended rest, rinse and repeat. Most of the people I play the game with are casual gamers, the group is not optimized, and we seem to get hit on a roll of 3 or 4 regularly.

 

[Aegeri]

To be honest that sounds like your DM needs to adjust.

On this topic I think there are four very important points:

1) Do not just take X encounter, dump in new damage maths and then leave it at that. If you've balanced your encounters around how things previously worked you should stick to it. What I did in BOTH of my games was after my PCs had an extended rest I introduced low (EL, EL+1 and EL+2) encounters into the game using the new maths to investigate the effect.

2) Emphasized from above, but make sure your PCs are aware that you're using new maths and introduce them slowly. Don't just throw them straight into a new EL + 4 encounter without figuring out how it changes your existing monsters (or how new monsters interact).

3) Don't be afraid to just see how things work and then go into the game by playing with yourself first. Take your PCs characters if you happen to have copies of their characters and just play a couple of simple encounters against yourself. See how things go, if you are still able to do some damage to your PCs despite the detailed "metagame" knowledge of every creature you have, you can expect it to be a bit harder for them.

4) At high paragon and epic start counting on your PCs being able to do less encounters per day without an extended rest. Monster damage is murderous and surgeless healing has been booted in the nuts extremely hard. You need to account for this by reducing encounter levels (see point 1 and 2) and the amount of encounters PCs will have to face per extended rest.

The basic principle here is not to jump into the new maths until you know how they interact with your party. Introduce PCs to it slowly with simpler encounters before you start just dumping all this into EL + 3 or EL + 4 (or whatever you were running) encounters. Otherwise you're likely to give your players a very unpleasant and IMO, distinctly unfair surprise that comes out of nowhere. Although the damage guidelines say it's around 40% higher, the actual result is far greater than that in actual play. Monsters do far more damage and far more often now than previously. So when playing with new monsters you should bear this factor in mind.

 

[Mengu]

The basic principle here is not to jump into the new maths until you know how they interact with your party. Introduce PCs to it slowly with simpler encounters before you start just dumping all this into EL + 3 or EL + 4 (or whatever you were running) encounters. Otherwise you're likely to give your players a very unpleasant and IMO, distinctly unfair surprise that comes out of nowhere. Although the damage guidelines say it's around 40% higher, the actual result is far greater than that in actual play. Monsters do far more damage and far more often now than previously. So when playing with new monsters you should bear this factor in mind.

I pretty much agree here. And that's the main root of my concern, that DM's out there may jump onto the high damage band wagon without realizing the repercussions. I'll certainly use caution in my games. For a party of 6 that's not very good at focusing fire, against enemies who do know how to focus fire, increased damage can bring down one PC a round which is rather bad for the good guys.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I know what it will mean for the group I play with - one encounter and then extended rest, rinse and repeat. Most of the people I play the game with are casual gamers, the group is not optimized, and we seem to get hit on a roll of 3 or 4 regularly.

Only that now your DM can use enemies 2 or 3 levels lower which don´t hit as often but do more damage and less hp.

This will cause combats to be more exiting, because its not autohit with low damage. HP of monsters will be lower, so the fight will be over a little bit faster. You will just get some less xp. But this may also be not a bug, but a feature, since previously leveling up was extreme fast, when combats usually were level+1 or level+2...

edit: just to be clear: it is far more intuitive for new DMs, that a Level+0 encounter is chllenging and deadly for an unorganized group. Level-x: easier, but with higher damage still draining resources. Level+x is deadly without good tactics...
Level +4 or Level +5 encounters should have gone the way of the dodo (not that you can´t use Level+4 monsters once in a while)

 

[Jack99]

I pretty much agree here. And that's the main root of my concern, that DM's out there may jump onto the high damage band wagon without realizing the repercussions. I'll certainly use caution in my games. For a party of 6 that's not very good at focusing fire, against enemies who do know how to focus fire, increased damage can bring down one PC a round which is rather bad for the good guys.

What repercussions? It's a bloody game. Worst thing that can happen is that the party is wiped and that they have to make new characters. Not the worst thing in the world that could happen.