New PC Brainstorming

Dannyalcatraz

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Only if you plan on using a Pact Hammer for most of your career. Spending stat points in strength for MBAs is kind of moot since you'll have a high Con (except for chain armor proficiency).

Str is probably going to be 13 or so because of Ranger & probable armor upgrade.

As a dwarf, I'd already be using a Warhammer, but with this feat, I'd be able to upgrade to a weapon that does 1d12, 2d6 or the like, as well as possibly being high-crit or reach. Couple that base damage boost with the proficiency & feat boosts and the (non-trivial) likelihood that this PC will find himself in melee and this looks pretty good to me.

As for Pacthammers...they may not even exist in this campaign. As I said before, this is kind of a shakedown/trial run for 4Ed in our group.

(Besides, he's a dwarf! Hammers & Axes rule!:))

This is an average of 2 extra damage every battle, assuming you hit on the turn you use the quarry, and hit on the following turn. The elemental feats would probably be more useful, in my opinion.

That was kind of my take on things.

I took this feat at level one and have never regretted it. It's amazing how a +2 to any attack or save helps out. This is my recommendation, since it doesn't matter how much damage you do if you don't hit, and there are times when you're guaranteed a hit by how many FotV bonuses you have (thank you minions), which is a nice time to blow a daily or really good encounter power.
I thought about that as well. My one disappointment with going Ranger over Wizard was that there are so few Warlock powers that are AoE, and Wizard would have gotten me one as an At-Will...perfect for triggering FotV

As a star pact warlock, I'm going to take Astral Fire, but not until late paragon or epic, since at that point the bonus will be more significant. Then again, I'm really focusing on fire/radiant powers with arcane admixture and a wider selection of powers. Since the core books don't offer as much, I'd say wait on these and see if your DM lets you pick from more stuff.

Arcane Admixture? Where is that?

As for fire/radiant...I know that I don't have to take Starpact powers exclusively, so I could take some of the fire/radiant powers from other pacts...but I like the Starpact powers! I'll have to give this some thought.
 

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Saagael

First Post
Str is probably going to be 13 or so because of Ranger & probable armor upgrade.

As a dwarf, I'd already be using a Warhammer, but with this feat, I'd be able to upgrade to a weapon that does 1d12, 2d6 or the like, as well as possibly being high-crit or reach. Couple that base damage boost with the proficiency & feat boosts and the (non-trivial) likelihood that this PC will find himself in melee and this looks pretty good to me.

As for Pacthammers...they may not even exist in this campaign. As I said before, this is kind of a shakedown/trial run for 4Ed in our group.

(Besides, he's a dwarf! Hammers & Axes rule!:))

Right, but unless you're wielding a hammer 1-handed, and an implement in the other hand, your warlock powers won't have an implement to use (which isn't a problem until about level 3ish). I didn't catch if you were using inherent bonuses or not, but if you aren't using that system, then you'll always want a free hand to hold a rod or wand.

And in that case, the only time this feat would come in to play is on OAs or MBAs given by allies, which I would think wouldn't make up a whole lot of your actions, since they'll have less hit chance (low strength plus low proficiency bonus).

Arcane Admixture? Where is that?

It's a paragon feat, but I'm pretty sure it's in PHB1 (EDIT: Got ninja'd. It's actually in Arcane Power).

As for fire/radiant...I know that I don't have to take Starpact powers exclusively, so I could take some of the fire/radiant powers from other pacts...but I like the Starpact powers! I'll have to give this some thought.

If you're going pure constitution and not boosting charisma, then there will be times you'll be stuck picking a Infernal Pact power. This is how I manage all fire/radiant powers. Otherwise I find Starlock powers generally run in the cold/radiant/necrotic damage types, with an occasional type thrown in (acid, poison, or psychic).
 


Dan'L

First Post
IMO, Warlocks -- particularly PHB1-only Warlocks (no access to melee basic training, no weapon-based attack powers) -- have no business swinging a melee weapon. Sure, it can be flavorful, but you really don't want to be on the front lines; you want to be running around getting your shadow walk concealment for better defenses and sniping at your choice targets.

You can still carry around that hammer and swing it when something triggers an OA from you, but it should really be your last tactic of choice. Since you've not got access to the Adventurer's Vault (from which we get Pact Hammers) I would recommend against spending feats on your hammer and focus more on what your Warlock actually does do well.

The energy feats can work well if you focus your power selection to work with them. Given that your pact at-will deals Radiant damage, your go-to should be Astral Fire; radiant and fire should come up often enough to give you a selection of powers that will key off this for most levels.

Remember, you can fluff/skin your powers any way you want to, so just because the listing reads (Infernal) doesn't mean you can't take it with your Star Pact Warlock and rewrite the flavor text. For example, the Level 3 "Fiery Bolt" could just as easily be "Comet Fall" or some such, and suddenly you have yourself a multi-target affecting power (to give better chance of triggering your FotV pact boon) that can benefit from Astral Fire.

Realize that your Ranger multi-class is 13 Strength OR Dexterity -- it does not need to be in both, just one. I would recommend Dex, since you would need a 13 in Dex to qualify for Astral Fire, and then spend the points for that 13 Str elsewhere.

I would also caution against feeling that an armor upgrade is really all that necessary, particularly given the M.A.D.C.O.W. disease that leads to here. While it's always nice to see your AC number high, in my experience playing Warlocks and seeing them played the best defense does not come from wearing better armor. It comes from wearing light armor with a high Int (or possibly Dex) score, and from always being in motion on the field in order to get concealment (and thus effectively +2 to all your defenses) from Shadow Walk, and from being not the easiest/closest target to the attacker when the bad guys get to go.

I would suggest a starting ability array (post racial) of:
8 Str, 18 Con, 13 Dex, 14 Int, 14 Wis, 13 Cha -- if you want to pick up both Astral Fire and Burning Blizzard. If you really don't care about Burning Blizzard feat (probably not your best choice, anyway) then take the two points out of Wis and bump Cha up to 14, then either leave Wis at 12 and Str at 8 or swap them around to 10/10.

I hope my ramblings are helpful!

-Dan'L
 

On Puget Sound

First Post
with the incredible boon that is the Character Builder, your group may find that it actually "keeps it simpler" to allow access to all the books, rather than having to figure out which feats or powers were published where. (Yes, I know you can set the CB to ignore the sources you don't allow, but it still complicates things when other gamers are discussing an option and no one can remember offhand whether it's legal for you.)

There were some real problems with some PH1 classes that were fixed in later books - most notably paladins (divine sanction) and warlocks (eldritch strike).
 

Obryn

Hero
Melee infernal warlocks kick some tail, but you really do need non-PHB sources for them to work. Dwarven Weapon Training + a pact hammer + Eldritch Strike are a pretty good combination. (Heck, Avernian Knight from MP2 makes it even better, freeing you from the pact hammer entirely.) At Paragon, add in Prime Punisher and that feat for +5 damage on prime shot... It works pretty passably well as a versatile ranged/melee striker.

PHB-only, though, I'd stay away from melee warlocks, I'm sorry to say.

-O
 

Dannyalcatraz

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Again, thanks for all the helpful commentary!

Right, but unless you're wielding a hammer 1-handed, and an implement in the other hand, your warlock powers won't have an implement to use (which isn't a problem until about level 3ish). I didn't catch if you were using inherent bonuses or not, but if you aren't using that system, then you'll always want a free hand to hold a rod or wand.

And in that case, the only time this feat would come in to play is on OAs or MBAs given by allies, which I would think wouldn't make up a whole lot of your actions, since they'll have less hit chance (low strength plus low proficiency bonus).

and

IMO, Warlocks -- particularly PHB1-only Warlocks (no access to melee basic training, no weapon-based attack powers) -- have no business swinging a melee weapon. Sure, it can be flavorful, but you really don't want to be on the front lines; you want to be running around getting your shadow walk concealment for better defenses and sniping at your choice targets.

and

PHB-only, though, I'd stay away from melee warlocks, I'm sorry to say.

-O

I'm sorry I wasn't clear: I'm not playing a melee warlock.

I just know from playing with this group since 1998 that it will be an unusual combat indeed where at least one caster doesn't wind up engaged in melee (and it has often been me). This means that any caster who isn't prepared at least somewhat to deal combat damage could wind up laid out on the tiles. Part of this is because almost every Player in our group (DMs included) is pretty tactically aware, so attacks from flanks, the rear, or even impossible to anticipate attackers (burrowers, invisibles, teleporters, etc.) are a fact of life. I'm usually the arcanist (if I'm playing one) who gets to go gishy in a given combat just because we have one guy whose mage is positioned party center 99% of the time...with me behind him. IOW, to get to him, they choose to go through me.

So my big axe or hammer will be put to use and my AC will be tested, I guarantee it.

As for "inherent bonuses", what exactly are those?

If you're going pure constitution and not boosting charisma, then there will be times you'll be stuck picking a Infernal Pact power. This is how I manage all fire/radiant powers. Otherwise I find Starlock powers generally run in the cold/radiant/necrotic damage types, with an occasional type thrown in (acid, poison, or psychic).

and

The energy feats can work well if you focus your power selection to work with them. Given that your pact at-will deals Radiant damage, your go-to should be Astral Fire; radiant and fire should come up often enough to give you a selection of powers that will key off this for most levels.

Remember, you can fluff/skin your powers any way you want to, so just because the listing reads (Infernal) doesn't mean you can't take it with your Star Pact Warlock and rewrite the flavor text. For example, the Level 3 "Fiery Bolt" could just as easily be "Comet Fall" or some such, and suddenly you have yourself a multi-target affecting power (to give better chance of triggering your FotV pact boon) that can benefit from Astral Fire.

Part of my problem is that I actually like the Star Pact powers, so going Con only is going to be difficult for me. Sometimes its flavor, sometimes its mechanics (those Pact dependent rider effects that rely on Int). Sometimes its how they mesh: for example, the 1st level encounter power is Cha based, but saps Will...and the 1st level daily is Con based and targeted against Will.

I know I can reskin stuff- I've actually been giving some- like Fiery Bolt- a serious look.

FWIW, I actually did the work and broke down the Star Pact attack powers by type:

  • Acid/Cold: 4 (1 is also Radiant)
  • Necrotic/Psychic: 5
  • Fire/Radiant: 4 (1 is also Cold)
  • Other: 6

Realize that your Ranger multi-class is 13 Strength OR Dexterity -- it does not need to be in both, just one. I would recommend Dex, since you would need a 13 in Dex to qualify for Astral Fire, and then spend the points for that 13 Str elsewhere.

I would also caution against feeling that an armor upgrade is really all that necessary, particularly given the M.A.D.C.O.W. disease that leads to here. While it's always nice to see your AC number high, in my experience playing Warlocks and seeing them played the best defense does not come from wearing better armor. It comes from wearing light armor with a high Int (or possibly Dex) score, and from always being in motion on the field in order to get concealment (and thus effectively +2 to all your defenses) from Shadow Walk, and from being not the easiest/closest target to the attacker when the bad guys get to go.

I would suggest a starting ability array (post racial) of:
8 Str, 18 Con, 13 Dex, 14 Int, 14 Wis, 13 Cha -- if you want to pick up both Astral Fire and Burning Blizzard. If you really don't care about Burning Blizzard feat (probably not your best choice, anyway) then take the two points out of Wis and bump Cha up to 14, then either leave Wis at 12 and Str at 8 or swap them around to 10/10.

I hope my ramblings are helpful!

-Dan'L

I know Ranger MC is Str or Dex, and Chain is Str. Despite my intent to be as mobile as possible, I'm still leaning heavily towards the Armor upgrade for reasons listed above. Besides, he's a Dwarf- he won't slow down any in that armor.

Of course, since I'm taking Ranger MC at 1st. I have some time to think about what- exactly- Malleus Skyhammer's armor of choice will be. Who knows- he might get a magical suit of something early on, making Chainmail less necessary.

Still, since my Feat choices will partly depend upon my stats, I still need to think about it ahead of time. I just got an email saying we'll be generating stats from the table of arrays.

I don't think I'll need to optimize my PC's stats by dumping others, though. We have a largish group: besides the DM, we'll have 8 players (including myself). The mage player will probably play a Wizard (95% of his PCs over the past 2 decades are), and even if he doesn't, his PC will be optimized. Another guy will probably play a Ranger- he's much like the Wizard player. One has already chosen Cleric. With a Controller, a Striker and a Leader, my striker doesn't have to be superbad- I can probably afford to be a "Average Joe" hero with fairly balanced stats (pre-racial mod).

with the incredible boon that is the Character Builder, your group may find that it actually "keeps it simpler" to allow access to all the books, rather than having to figure out which feats or powers were published where. (Yes, I know you can set the CB to ignore the sources you don't allow, but it still complicates things when other gamers are discussing an option and no one can remember offhand whether it's legal for you.)

As a Mac user who doesn't run Parallels or any other Windows emulation, CB is not an option.
 

Dan'L

First Post
I'm sorry I wasn't clear: I'm not playing a melee warlock.

...

So my big axe or hammer will be put to use and my AC will be tested

The point is, as a warlock your big axe or hammer will be at best a sub-optimal choice of tactics. You'd be better off grabbing a close blast or two for those up-close emergency situations where you can't just shift and make a ranged attack, or are otherwise unwilling to risk taking an OA. Also, look for powers that give you good maneuverability options; I know that warlocks have access to a nice amount of teleport powers.

Also, realize that you can risk taking a hit or two, and it's OK.

Part of my problem is that I actually like the Star Pact powers, so going Con only is going to be difficult for me.

...

I don't think I'll need to optimize my PC's stats by dumping others, though. We have a largish group: besides the DM, we'll have 8 players (including myself). The mage player will probably play a Wizard (95% of his PCs over the past 2 decades are), and even if he doesn't, his PC will be optimized. Another guy will probably play a Ranger- he's much like the Wizard player. One has already chosen Cleric. With a Controller, a Striker and a Leader, my striker doesn't have to be superbad- I can probably afford to be a "Average Joe" hero with fairly balanced stats (pre-racial mod).

Given this and your desire to crank up your AC, I would recommend forgetting about the energy feats entirely, and focus solely on what will be your two primary stats (Con and Cha), your rider- and AC- boosting secondary stat (Int) and only your minimum pre-req in Str. Something like (post-racial): 13 Str, 16 Con, 10 Dex, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha. (In my experience, you really shouldn't start with less than a post-racial 16 in your primary stat, and you'll have two of them with this build.) It's not about dumping one stat to pump another, since everything pretty much starts out non-dumped. It's about pumping what is actually useful to your build functioning with the limited resources at your disposal in a manner that you actually get to accomplish the things you picture your character doing.

I know that this can sound a bit like harsh "optimization," but I've witnessed too many players in 4e floundering with their PCs because they tried to do a little of everything, and end up not doing much of anything. I've particularly seen it with Warlocks. Most of the times I've seen people having the least fun in 4e has been when they've built PCs which lack tactical focus because they were too concerned with making sure they'd have a tool for every contingency -- because a contingency plan only works when it "hits," and they'd gimped the character too much to make it likely.

It's one of the big ways I've found 4e to vary over the previous editions; PCs do best when focused in on doing their "thing" well, and relying on the other party PCs to be able to cover for their shortcomings.

Obviously, your own tastes and play style will dictate what actually makes a fun character for you; I'm just trying to help you steer clear of some of the pitfalls I and some of my fellow players have fallen into.

-Dan'L
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
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The point is, as a warlock your big axe or hammer will be at best a sub-optimal choice of tactics.

<snip many good points>

Obviously, your own tastes and play style will dictate what actually makes a fun character for you; I'm just trying to help you steer clear of some of the pitfalls I and some of my fellow players have fallen into.

-Dan'L

I understand that my choices may be sub-optimal, but they do fit the way I'm thinking about the character's nature. In a way, his proficiency with axes, hammers and possibly armor help keep him grounded in his Dwarven culture.

I mean that from both sides of the equation.

His family history already makes him sort of an outcast- the visual touchstones of cultural weapons and armor would make him more acceptable to other Dwarves than almost any of his other relatives.

And by wrapping himself and training in the martial trappings of his culture, it helps him keep a sense of self- a sense of Dwarfness- when contemplating mysteries of reality...and combatting aberrant intruders from the Far Realm.

(Besides, being sub-optimal never got in the way of me enjoying a PC. ;) I have a strong tendency towards playing Jacks of All Trades, regardless of system.)

That all said, Con will definitely be his big stat, and my final stat array may strongly resemble what you suggested. Fiery Bolt is high on my list of non-Starlock powers. I haven't looked closely at what close blast options my PC will have- if any- and at what levels.
 
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