New players only at level 1?

[S'mon]

Any DM in Any edition of D&D that would have one player play a 1st level character among 8th level characters needs to be kicked soundly in the crotch. The inevitable results amounts to hazing the noob, and that isn't good for the growth of the hobby.

Well I think the power disparity was a lot less in some of the earlier editions. I'm currently running Moldvay B/X with fairly low magic items & wealth - PCs 2nd-6th, no one has a sword that's better than +1 (other than a +1/+3 vs dragons), armour is nonmagical studded or chainmail. Most PCs start at 3rd and they're not overshadowed by the 5th-6th level PCs.

Eg the newest PC, Odessa:
Fighter Level: 3 BTH: +2 AC: 16/15 (11, +3 armour, +1 DEX, +1 shield)
Hit Points: 18 Weapons: +1 Sword ‘Justice’: ATT +4/d8+2

By contrast the most experienced PC, Faoiltiarna:
Fighter Level: 6 BTH: +4 AC: 15 (11, +3 armour, +1 DEX)
Hit Points: 36 Weapons: +1 Great Sword, the Wolf Sword: ATT +6/2d6+2

Faoil would probably beat Odessa in a fight, but they can certainly adventure together with Odessa contributing. I think it's a particular result of 3e's "double power every 2 levels" design approach that makes any level disparity beyond 1 level so damaging to the game.

 

[sjmiller]

lvl 1. have 'em roll 3d6 in order. str, int, wis, con, dex, cha

As a tangent, every time I see someone say the stats in that order I think, "They got them wrong!" To me the stats are str, dex, end, int, edu, soc. Of course, I started playing Traveller before D&D, so maybe that is the reason.

 

[Korgoth]

I vote for Level 1. That's the starting level, and it's very satisfying to have to work your way up from there... and it also keeps the efforts of the other players, who did work their way up from there, from being cheapened.

You have to make some adjustments if you're playing 3E, though. Before, there wasn't a concept of "average party level" that scaled your XP awards, saving throws didn't get more difficult based on who cast the spell, and everybody could search for large traps, etc. So if you're playing 3E, start him at 1 but you may want to let him get the same XP awards as everyone else. Also, have some DCs for normal activities (Search, Spot, etc.) that aren't totally out of control.

There are lots of things a 1st level character can do with a higher level party: guard the rear, pole for traps, manage the mule, carry a light source (remember, somebody has to have a free hand for a light source unless you've got certain magic items), watch the ceiling and even participate in combat: firing wands, throwing grenade-like missles, and dragging other characters to safety (and then administering a healing salve or something like that). Although they have to watch out for AoE spells... so combat participation should be a last resort sort of thing. There's plenty for a low-leveler to do in a high level party, and doing a lot of these tasks (like watching the rear and leading the mule) frees up the other party members to do their high level stuff.

 

[awayfarer]

I vote for Level 1. That's the starting level, and it's very satisfying to have to work your way up from there... and it also keeps the efforts of the other players, who did work their way up from there, from being cheapened.

By that logic, shouldn't someone who has been playing the game for two years get to play a higher level character than someone who's played for only two months?

It is also NOT satisfying to have to work your way up if you're constantly outclassed and useless to the group. Furthermore its practically impossible because you're going to get slaughtered at nearly every opportunity. If the DM tones the CR of encounters way down the higher level PC's will likely get bored. Let me repeat that I am stating this from experience.

There are lots of things a 1st level character can do with a higher level party: guard the rear, pole for traps, manage the mule, carry a light source (remember, somebody has to have a free hand for a light source unless you've got certain magic items), watch the ceiling and even participate in combat: firing wands, throwing grenade-like missles, and dragging other characters to safety

Taken in order (And assuming a 7 lvl disparity)...
1: They suck at guarding the rear because their spot/listen checks will be low. Furthermore, any rear attack is likely going to make a 1st level character a fine red mist.
2: Anyone can pole for traps. If by some chance the traps effects reach more than ten feet (not unlikely), this character is a fine red mist.
3: Yes, I decided to become an adventurer to manage someones pack-mule. Furthermore, if the mule (CR1) gets angry, theres a pretty good chance a 1st level character will be reduced to a fine red mist.
4: As with the mule, except for the fine red mist part. Also, at 8th level a party probably has some kind of permanent or magical light source.
5: As with guarding, this characters spot check is likely so low that it's worthless. Furthermore, this is not something so difficult that one higher level character can't take a second to bother with.
6: Firing wands? Good luck even managing to effectively use a wand at 1st level.
7: Standing 10 feet away and doing 1d6 damage to something is a good way of being reduced to a fine red mist. Firstly, a character at level 1 is likely going to have a mediocre-terrible to-hit bonus. Secondly, even if they do hit something, they've just made themselves a target.
8: Why in the world is a 1st level character going to be running towards something that just floored someone 8 times more powerful than they are. I am aware that characters aren't going to know the numbers, but if I see my friend "Jim the Owlbear Wrestler" get slaughtered my first instinct isn't going to be to rush towards whatever killed him; lest I get turned into...meh, you get the picture.

 

[ha-gieden]

To quote Thunderfoot:

"Another option is to let them describe the character to you (Don't open the rules, don't explain anything, just talk) What is their charater concept? What is their driving force? Why do they want to do certain things?

As the DM you can then guide them toward an appropriate class (saves on all the rule squashing and the brain oozing that happens to many new players). Explain the finer points of THAT class only, if they want to play a race that isn't a favored one of that class, let them. They will learn powergaming soon enough, let them enjoy being someone else first."

I agree with this completely. We have used it many times, always to great success.

I would also agree with starting the new player out at a lower level than the rest of the party. The reasons for this are:

1) Respect to the other players/characters
2) Letting the new player master the class basics before getting into the confusing bits
3) Earning those levels make them mean more to the player
4) If they attack another PC, they will lose (this has happened)
5) Being obviously weaker than the other party members gives an in-game reason for the party to protect the new guy.

That said, I think starting characters at 1st when everyone else is at 5th or above is pretty likely to get the new character killed. It can be seen as a fun challenge for some, but most people will get frustrated. I would say to start the new player about 3 levels below the current players - unless the current players are at a *really* high level. In that case, 10th level seems to be the break-over level.

BTW, can someone explain to me how QUOTE works on this forum?

 

[Umbran]

Any DM in Any edition of D&D that would have one player play a 1st level character among 8th level characters needs to be kicked soundly in the crotch.

Now, let's not get quite that vehement in the discussion, please, even if it is meant hyperbolically. Nobody likes being told they should be physically harmed for what amounts to a matter of taste. Such stuff doesn't lead to good idea exchange in the discussion.

 

[Henry]

For a player brand-new to roleplaying games, it's not required, but in my opinion it's common sense. In my opinion, with "trainers" feeding them advice, they're still not really learning the same way as if they had to do it themselves. Rather than the vast learning curve that is trying to figure out multiple special powers, I'd rather they got their first taste of combat, levelling, etc. with a slower and flatter curve.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I would definitely not start the new player at 1st level.

My main reasoning is that the player is going to feel insignificant compared to the rest of the players, and that generally leads to people leaving. Another big one is DM hassle - if you show special perferance by protecting the character, the player may not feel like it's actually playing the game, leading to leaving.

DarkJester, you mentioned you don't have enough time for much outside of the campaign. Maybe his friends do? The friends could run him through a couple of one-shots before he joins, after you and he discuss what he would like to play. Plus, if he decides he's not interested after a bit, perhaps this will save some time.

 

[Michael Morris]

Now, let's not get quite that vehement in the discussion, please, even if it is meant hyperbolically. Nobody likes being told they should be physically harmed for what amounts to a matter of taste. Such stuff doesn't lead to good idea exchange in the discussion.

Having been the target of such hazing it's a raw nerve of mine, very raw. We play games for fun - and being the spear carrier or pack mule in a D&D game isn't any fun. Anyway, it's all hyperbole. My advice to any player who is asked by a DM to start at 1st level when the rest of the party is 8th is to pack up your stuff and leave - because such a request is a clear indicator that your presence isn't wanted, even if the DM and the other players aren't mature enough to communicate that fact.

 

[DaveyJones]

Having been the target of such hazing it's a raw nerve of mine, very raw. We play games for fun - and being the spear carrier or pack mule in a D&D game isn't any fun. Anyway, it's all hyperbole. My advice to any player who is asked by a DM to start at 1st level when the rest of the party is 8th is to pack up your stuff and leave - because such a request is a clear indicator that your presence isn't wanted, even if the DM and the other players aren't mature enough to communicate that fact.

why does it have to be hazing though?

if i had fun playing lvl 1 thru whatever. then why would i want to rob the new player of that fun too?

not every group hazes.