generalhenry
First Post
qft
New Race for Review - Minotaur (civilized)
- Thread starter Khaalis
- Start date
qft
If I were writing for a general release 'official' product I'd have done exactly that, and I recommend that for anyone who wants to drop it into a 'generic' D&D game.
Our homebrew however doesn't like the idea that every creature, race, culture, nation, etc. in the world shares the same base language. In the homebrew this was written for, Minotaurs speak minotaur, and can gain additional languages based on their background.
Change Log: 07Jul08
• Corrected some spelling/grammatical errors.
• Changed Mighty Blow feat prerequisites to STR 17.
• Changed ”Ability Score: +2 Wisdom or Charisma” to ”+2 Intelligence”.
• Added Direction Sense heroic feat.
• Dropped Minotaur Weapon Training feat.
• Dropped Maze Immunity feat.
• Corrected some spelling/grammatical errors.
• Changed Mighty Blow feat prerequisites to STR 17.
• Changed ”Ability Score: +2 Wisdom or Charisma” to ”+2 Intelligence”.
• Added Direction Sense heroic feat.
• Dropped Minotaur Weapon Training feat.
• Dropped Maze Immunity feat.
Well, yes . . . except - when you post something like this to ENWorld and ask for feedback, you have to expect us to provide that feedback as if you were writing for a generic release. So, you might as well write that way and house-rule things to fit your specific setting, which after all is what everyone else does anyway.
ETA - Oh, and I really like the write-up, with the exception of Mighty Swing, which strikes me as rather too powerful, as it replaces the Fighter Tide of Iron completely and augments everything else. And all of this at the Heroic tier, no less.
Consider making it a Paragon Tier feat, changing the requirements to Constitution 15 and making it situational - only with Combat Advantage, or (my choice) only on Opportunity Attacks, which would bring it in-line with Heavy Blade Opportunity while still retaining the flavor. Otherwise it's effectively the same thing as giving all Minotaur characters a Fighter at-will power for the cost of a feat - a bargain at twice the price.
Last edited:
Natual Attacks
I have a feeling I'm going to get yelled at for saying this (since I've been yelled at it every time I've brought it up on the D&D forums) but I don't think there is such things as "Natual Attacks" in 4e (I.E. the "Gore" ability).
The reason I say this is not because I've found a rule that says so specifically, but because not one of the official PC races has a natural attack (not even the Minotaur...).
I understand the reason for wanting to add in a natual attack, but if you are trying to make a balanced Minotaur (which is better than the short writeup in the MM while still being balanced against the "core" races) then I really think you have to drop the Gore ability. I know I wouldn't allow a race with a natural attack in one of my games; at least not until I see an official race with a natural attack.
That's just my two cents.
Good job on the writeup.
I have a feeling I'm going to get yelled at for saying this (since I've been yelled at it every time I've brought it up on the D&D forums) but I don't think there is such things as "Natual Attacks" in 4e (I.E. the "Gore" ability).
The reason I say this is not because I've found a rule that says so specifically, but because not one of the official PC races has a natural attack (not even the Minotaur...).
I understand the reason for wanting to add in a natual attack, but if you are trying to make a balanced Minotaur (which is better than the short writeup in the MM while still being balanced against the "core" races) then I really think you have to drop the Gore ability. I know I wouldn't allow a race with a natural attack in one of my games; at least not until I see an official race with a natural attack.
That's just my two cents.
Good job on the writeup.
Eldritch_Lord
Adventurer
Is a natural attack really that bad? Consider this particular example: Giving the minotaur Gore is effectively giving it a feat that grants +2 to unarmed attack rolls and increases damage to d6, with the caveat that it's always treated as an off-hand weapon. Comparing that to Weapon Focus and some fighter abilities, that seems balanced so far.
You can't enchant it (unless I've missed something and you can already enchant unarmed strikes, in which case it's still balanced anyway) and it doesn't matter that it's attached to his head unless you really really really want to sunder or disarm PC weapons for some reason. What's so bad about that?
And that's the type of answer I expected (minus the yelling).
I don't know if it's really "that bad", and I agree with your reasoning behind why it might not be "that bad", but that's not the point. I don't think Natural Armour was "that bad", or so overpowered that it should be removed from the game entirely, but it was. I believe Natural Attacks have also gone the way of the dodo, so it doesn't really matter if its overpowered/gamebreaking or near-fluff/harmless; if Natrual Attacks have been removed the same way Natural Armour has, then you can't make a homebrew race with a Natrual Attack and expect it to be balanced.
Eldritch_Lord
Adventurer
Ah, so it's the fact that it's not already there, rather than "OMG that must be broken!" Gotcha. A better reason, I think, though I still disagree.
Let me see if I can frame my argument to address those concerns, then. I would have to bring up four points:
1) 4e's guiding principle is exceptions-based design. In the PHB they say you can't have darkvision for PC races because it's too different...then some of the MM races get darkvision. In the Power Description part of PHB Chapter 3 they state that area attacks affect all creatures in the area...yet many powers state "all enemies in the area" or "all allies in the area." Abilities such as flight, invisibility, and teleportation are said to be way too good for Heroic-level play...yet Eladrin and Warlocks can get short-range teleportation at 1st level and the Gnome can turn invisible. And so forth.
2) There are no examples of natural armor yet. I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual druid has a stoneskin ability that grants it, or some race gains natural armor through an ability. And remember, since bonuses are now classified by source (power, feat, etc.) rather than type (profane, luck, etc.) any racial bonus to AC (or power bonus if the power is a Polymorph ability, assuming they get that working) could be considered natural armor.
3) Crunch over Fluff. Powers are balanced on the assumption that a level X power can have Y effect, whether it's a magical blast, sword swing, fist to the face, or something else. The Power Description section actually states this time around "The given flavor is optional, change it if you wish." Thus, as long as a natural weapon has equivalent advantages and disadvantages to a regular weapon, it's basically a regular weapon, and thus nothing new.
4) Natural attacks are equivalent to at-will powers. Getting an at-will (rather than encounter) racial power already exists--human, at least, and perhaps a race in the MM which I don't recall right now. So consider: If the dragonborn can deal 1d6 damage in a Close blast 3 with +2 to the attack roll as an encounter power, and a human can get magic missile at Ranged 10 and 2d4 damage, I'd say something like, oh, 1d6 damage at Melee 1 with +2 to the attack roll should be about equal to an at-will, right?
Based on (1), you shouldn't discount it just because it's not in the PHB; based on (2), you can assume that it will make it into some PHB or other book sooner or later; based on (3), since sunder and disarm are basically out of 4e and you can't enchant natural weapons, the advantages and disadvantages of natural and artificial weapons balance out; and based on (4) the ability is approximately equivalent to racial powers that came before.
Better?
Read and enjoyed the write-up.
Just a few notes about the updates (I was a little slow getting off the bulk piece, so please bear with...)
Mighty Blow: In my experience, assuming that an attribute limit is any sort of balancer is nothing but trouble. A power that is broken at Str 10 will still be broken at Str 18, you've just ensured that fewer people have access, and your game only remains unbroken until you get someone with a high enough stat to access it.
Suggest if you have a balance problem that you recast the power or move it to a level where it won't be broken, if there is one.
Intelligence +2: I have doubts about this change. First, traditionally and in 4e, minotaurs are about as big and dumb as they come. No iteration of minotaurs in any game or literature I've seen suggests the racial average for Intelligence is above Human norms. Specific individuals, yes. The masses, no.
On the other hand, by spiking Wisdom, you decrease their Nature skills and Perception skills, which every source I've ever seen has pegged significantly above human norms.
Even going back to Constitution would be, IMO, superior to boosting Intelligence here. At least that would be consistent with the MM source.
I agree that minotaurs should have a shot at Warlord, but I suggest the type of Warlord we see would rule by strength of personality and not by intellect. And that's Charisma. I think your original call on this one was right on the money, and I am disappointed to see it change.
Direction Sense: While default monster minotaurs traditionally have this, I would question Heroic Tier for 4e. The "book" minotaurs are 10 HD+, mostly above, which suggests that the Paragon Tier might be more appropriate.
In my first post (submitted below), I suggested a configuration for the direction sense at Epic Tier that could just as well be placed at Paragon Tier.
Minotaur Training Feat: no comment
Side Comment on Natural Weapons:
They are briefly mentioned in the PH material on the Unarmed Weapon Group (p216), but all the support material (such as a definition in the Glossary) is absent. Currently they seem to be in limbo until WotC either cleans up the scraps or provides enough material to play with.
The gore attack needs to stay. The creature has it in the current MM and attacks with it; you can't very well take it away from players without putting a major hit on their "suspension of disbelief". You can control it, maybe build a few feats around it. If you take it out, you lose something important from the core concept.
In earlier editions "natural weapons" was the term used to define that the penalties associated with human unarmed attacks were not applied to the monsters with significant claw, horn, teeth, tongue, tail, etc. attacks. In other words, since "unarmed" attacks had significant game penalties, the term "natural weapons" was used to designate attacks by monsters that were not subject to "unarmed" penalties.
Personally I have difficulty envisioning how something with natural weapons is "unarmed" or how teeth, horns, and claws can be considered "improvised weapons" when they are what all the natural/bestial monsters attack with, but your mileage may vary.
"Natural weapons" is proving as elusive as "Stance" in these books.
Following is my original post (finally posted here).
Read and enjoyed the write-up.
Some notes:
Your minotaur player race is taller and heavier than the MM Racial Trait default (MM p278). However, the MM Minotaur Lore DC 15 (MM p 191) states that the civilized minotaurs are smaller than savage minotaurs. Perhaps keep the MM default for the civilized ones and save the higher figures for the savage minotaurs?
That said, I do like your departure from Constitution to Wisdom/Charisma as the secondary attribute. Low cunning has long been part of the minotaur portfolio, and I like the idea of them branching out into the Warlord class.
Goring Charge: Would the Attack be “Strength +3” (+2 prof + 1 charge)?
I have long thought minotaur characters have some interesting core challenges.
A tweak or two to consider--
RACIAL TRAITS
Bullheaded: You have a +2 racial bonus to your Intimidate skill, a -3 racial penalty to your Diplomacy skill, and a +1 racial bonus to your Will Defense.
(The first speaks to their size and strength in general, the second to their bluntness, perceived arrogance, and the suspicion with which other races regard them. The suggested penalty specifically dovetails with the Skill Focus feat to net out to zero. The third is a consistent theme element. Overall, I consider this a slight gain for the minotaur, as defense modifiers are IMO worth more than skill modifiers.)
Dimwitted: You cannot take any Intelligence-based skills when you choose a class. You must use the Skill Training feat to acquire Intelligence-based skills. In addition, you have a -2 penalty to Intuition skill checks.
(Again, snuggling up to the MM descriptive text and adapting it to a PC treatment. This also provides something of a cultural rationale for the stress on honor—falling for lies and fast talk might be a racial vulnerability for which they have compensated socially.)
Fearless: This aspect may need strengthening. Maybe make Battle Courage a race trait…
Battle Courage => The Bold racial trait (cf Halflings).
(The fearlessness of minotaurs strikes me as a core racial trait – a 45% vulnerability to fear as a racial default just seems too high to me.)
Battle Courage, the feat, might instead add a +2 feat bonus to fear saves and a +1 feat bonus to Will defense.
(This would boost fear saving throws to 90% with the feat, leaving room for a power or enhancement bonus before the save becomes completely automatic. Note that, in sum, the suggestions actually raise Will Defense by +2 total. Also one gets the chance to pick between this feat and Iron Will, which allows some incremental slanting within the race.)
IMO the good & bad of this small package mostly nets out, and captures a bit more of the classic archetype.
On the off-chance minotaur PCs turn out to be too powerful, here is another racial item you might add if you need it:
Naturally Clumsy: You have a -2 racial penalty to Stealth and Acrobatics, and a -2 racial penalty to Bluff.
(Can you say “bull in a china shop”? I know we don’t like to lumber PCs with disadvantages in 4e, but not putting them in when it’s thematic ultimately narrows the range of effects we can create--like an artist throwing away half his palette.
That said, to soften this trait, I’d throw out the Acrobatics penalty first. Favoring a Bluff penalty may seem counterintuitive, but may be more in keeping with both the honorable truthiness of the race and would tend to discourage minotaurs from, say, using feints in a fight. Subtlety is not a racial strongpoint. On the other hand, if implementing all of these puts too much drag on the race, then this is the first trait I’d throw under the bus.)
[Extra For Savage Minotaurs]
There are so many differences between the “savage” and “civilized” minotaurs that it may be best to assume PCs will be of the civilized variety for now – and leave the savage ones until we get an official barbarian build.
For example, the savage minotaurs should probably have the following from their demonic blood.
Demonic Senses: You have low-light vision and a +1 racial bonus to Perception skill checks.
(OK, so I filed the serial numbers off Dragonborn Senses. Sue me.)
(This makes them both better suited for a subterranean environment and echoes the tendency for civilized individuals to lose some of the finely tuned senses that primitives retain.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MINOTAUR FEAT IDEAS
HEROIC TIER
Horn Slash
Prerequisite: Minotaur.
Benefit: You can use a move action to slash with your horns as a primary attack. You gore an adjacent opponent for 1d6 + 2 + Strength modifier damage.
(This gives the horns a combat feat that allows scope for tactical positioning. Note: The +2 is the horn proficiency bonus.)
(I confess I’m a little confused by the MM horn damage – deducting the Strength mod only leaves a +1 proficiency bonus for the horns, which seems low. I like your +2 better. Maybe someone from WotC would like to comment on how monster stats were built? Maybe use the minotaur as an example?)
PARAGON TIER
Rampaging Bull
Prerequisite: Minotaur.
Benefit: At the instant you are bloodied, you can choose to declare a rampage. While rampaging, your melee attack has a +1 bonus and your damage has a +2 bonus. While you rampage you may use features, feats, powers, and exploits that either can cause damage or that move you closer to your opponents, but none other. At the end of your first turn in which you not make a melee attack with your standard action, the rampage ends. If you have more than one feat or power that can be triggered in this way, then you must choose one at most.
(This requires the minotaur to keep moving forward and attacking if he wants to keep the bonuses going. I expect players will have fun coming up with combinations to maximize their duration here. The wording is precise here, to allow players to fiddle with, say, action points.)
Relentless Pursuit
Prerequisite: Minotaur.
Benefit: When an adjacent opponent steps, shifts, slides, is pulled, or is pushed away from you, you may immediately follow the opponent up to two squares, shifting into squares the opponent vacates. This shift does not subject you to attacks of opportunity. You may use this feat once per round.
(I favor deliberately allowing the minotaur the ability to outrun his support – then find out if the player is astute enough to compensate. I hope they are, I like to see them win.)
(Something interesting happens with teleport here. The only square vacated by a teleporting opponent is the one he stood in. As he never enters other squares between that one and his destination, the minotaur advances only one square.)
( “Duh…Where’d he go?”
)
EPIC TIER FEATS
Epic Direction Sense (replaces Maze Immunity)
Prerequisites: Wis 15, any two feats that increase your Perception skill.
Benefit: You are never lost. You can unerringly find your way to any location that you have actually been to. You are immune to the effects of the Maze power and similar magic or psychic effects. This feat does not reveal compass directions and functions only when you have a specific destination (a location) in mind. You can get an directional intuition by using a minor action.
(I am not certain that this should be restricted to minotaurs, though I don’t offhand recall any other specific monsters that have this ability. The directional indication is on the order of “ that-a-way ... (*points*)
(Actually, two perception adds are pretty easy, three might be more in line with an Epic Tier ability. Don't have a good enough handle on the opportunity costs of different advancement trees yet to comment.)
Implacable Nemesis
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Relentless Pursuit.
Benefit: You can replace one of your At-Will exploits with the Implacable Nemesis feat exploit for an encounter. You can decide to replace your exploit any time in the encounter before you use it, but you cannot replace an At-Will exploit you have already used in the encounter.
Implacable Nemesis Feat Exploit
Encounter + Martial
Free Action Melee
Trigger: Your Relentless Pursuit leaves you adjacent to your original opponent.
Effect: You may gore, bull rush, or trample your opponent immediately, as if you had charged. If you are marked by someone other than your opponent, you ignore that attack penalty when you make this attack. You are still subject to any damage ignoring a mark may deal.
("As if you had changed" means you get the +1 attack bonus. You don't have to go the charge distance, that's the 'as if' part.)
Mind Surge
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Wisdom 13+, Con 15+
Benefit: You can, with a great effort of will and stamina, throw off certain conditions that hinder you. At the end of your turn, you can use three of your personal healing surges to gain a +5 saving throw bonus against a dazed, dominated, psychic, or mind-affecting continuing condition. If you have less than three personal healing surges remaining, then you cannot use this feat. If you fail, the healing surges are still expended. You can use this feat only once per day.
(I’m not completely satisfied with the cost on this one. It has to hurt without being crippling. The suggested cost can be not quite offset by one selection of the Durability feat. Seems about right to me but needs testing. Although I think Con is more important to this feat than Wis, I consider a change to Wis 15/Con 15) without impact, balance-wise.)
Superior Senses
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Perception 21
Benefit: When the DM announced you are surprised, you can immediately roll a Perception check. If it is successful, then you are not surprised. Otherwise, you are surprised. You can use this feat once per surprise situation.
(The wording here specifically allows for an encounter with multiple surprises. The minotaur would check for each. The is based on an earlier edition minotaur description that gave flat immunity to surprise. Automatic effects are tremendous leverage points in a game, and any time you can get rid of one, it's usually a good thing. Unless, of course, an automatic effect has greater plot potential--for example, the direction sense ability, which has a wonderful effect toward focusing party travel.
For example, in 4e, a flyer going above its maximum altitude automatically crashes. Hmm...I have a power that pushes opponents--
"Mr. DM, I'm pushing that red dragon...UP!")
Third Wind
Prerequisite: Minotaur. Constitution 13+
Benefit: Once per encounter, at the instant you are bloodied, you may expend one of your healing surges as a free action. You do not get the defensive bonuses of a second wind. If you have more than one feat or power that can be triggered in this way, then you must choose one at most.
(and for a bit of anime…)
Sundering Strike
Prerequisite: Strength 20, Axe Mastery, two-handed axe or hammer.
Benefit: In one encounter, you can replace one of your Daily powers with the Sundering Strike exploit, which has two versions. You chose which form the strike takes when you use it. You can use this feat only once per day, and using this feat expends the daily power as well.
Sundering Strike Feat Exploit
Daily + Martial
Standard + Move Melee Weapon
Effect: You attempt to destroy an object or barrier with a single mighty blow. You spend a move action taking the proper stance and an standard action to deliver the strike itself. If your strike is successful, a door or portcullis is shattered to flinders, a wall is sufficiently breached for you to walk through, a ship’s mast is felled, a bridge section collapses, or so on (see the DMG p.64 for information on breaking down doors).
Alternately, you can strike the ground, creating a Sundering Burst that affects opponents..
Sundering Burst Feat Exploit
Daily + Martial
Standard + Move Melee Weapon
Attack: Str. vs. Ref.
Hit: 2d8 thunder damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Special: The burst travels in a straight line just below ground level. It is one square wide and 12 squares long. However, it stops at non-earth obstacles, such a stream, ditch, or moat. A blocking land construction, such as a wall, a rampart, or a barricade suffers a Sundering Strike at DC +2 and stops the burst short as well.
Effect: Everyone except you who is on the ground and in or adjacent to the burst area must make a saving throw or fall prone.
(This needs to be as cinematic as possible. The main use is to make a spectacular entrance into a climactic fight.)
(Hmmm... Can you say Wind Scar? Thought so.)
RECOMMENDED MINOTAUR FEATS from PH
(These are not required, but are typical minotaur selections.)
(H) Alertness, Durable, Powerful Charge, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Endurance, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Intimidation, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Nature, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Perception, Tough--
(P) Blood Thirst, Combat Anticipation, Danger Sense, Deadly Axe, Devastating Critical--
(E) Axe Mastery, Epic Resurgence, Triumphant Attack.
By the way, my two favorite fiction books about minotaurs are:
Day of the Minotaur by Thomas Burnett Swan, and
Ashes of the Sun by Hanovi Braddock.
The first uses a traditional Greek (fey) setting.
The second is a MtG novel that details a minotaur culture (the dialog here is so well done that you can often identify individual minotaurs by their spoken lines).
As regards the former, one possible variation that might be explored is a Fey background, picking up the Fey Origin trait text from the Eladrin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--From the OD&D Book "Monsters & Treasure"
"The Minotaur is classically a bull-headed man (and all of us who
have debated rules are well acquainted with such)..." lol!
Just a few notes about the updates (I was a little slow getting off the bulk piece, so please bear with...)
Mighty Blow: In my experience, assuming that an attribute limit is any sort of balancer is nothing but trouble. A power that is broken at Str 10 will still be broken at Str 18, you've just ensured that fewer people have access, and your game only remains unbroken until you get someone with a high enough stat to access it.
Suggest if you have a balance problem that you recast the power or move it to a level where it won't be broken, if there is one.
Intelligence +2: I have doubts about this change. First, traditionally and in 4e, minotaurs are about as big and dumb as they come. No iteration of minotaurs in any game or literature I've seen suggests the racial average for Intelligence is above Human norms. Specific individuals, yes. The masses, no.
On the other hand, by spiking Wisdom, you decrease their Nature skills and Perception skills, which every source I've ever seen has pegged significantly above human norms.
Even going back to Constitution would be, IMO, superior to boosting Intelligence here. At least that would be consistent with the MM source.
I agree that minotaurs should have a shot at Warlord, but I suggest the type of Warlord we see would rule by strength of personality and not by intellect. And that's Charisma. I think your original call on this one was right on the money, and I am disappointed to see it change.
Direction Sense: While default monster minotaurs traditionally have this, I would question Heroic Tier for 4e. The "book" minotaurs are 10 HD+, mostly above, which suggests that the Paragon Tier might be more appropriate.
In my first post (submitted below), I suggested a configuration for the direction sense at Epic Tier that could just as well be placed at Paragon Tier.
Minotaur Training Feat: no comment
Side Comment on Natural Weapons:
They are briefly mentioned in the PH material on the Unarmed Weapon Group (p216), but all the support material (such as a definition in the Glossary) is absent. Currently they seem to be in limbo until WotC either cleans up the scraps or provides enough material to play with.
The gore attack needs to stay. The creature has it in the current MM and attacks with it; you can't very well take it away from players without putting a major hit on their "suspension of disbelief". You can control it, maybe build a few feats around it. If you take it out, you lose something important from the core concept.
In earlier editions "natural weapons" was the term used to define that the penalties associated with human unarmed attacks were not applied to the monsters with significant claw, horn, teeth, tongue, tail, etc. attacks. In other words, since "unarmed" attacks had significant game penalties, the term "natural weapons" was used to designate attacks by monsters that were not subject to "unarmed" penalties.
Personally I have difficulty envisioning how something with natural weapons is "unarmed" or how teeth, horns, and claws can be considered "improvised weapons" when they are what all the natural/bestial monsters attack with, but your mileage may vary.
"Natural weapons" is proving as elusive as "Stance" in these books.
Following is my original post (finally posted here).
Read and enjoyed the write-up.
Some notes:
Your minotaur player race is taller and heavier than the MM Racial Trait default (MM p278). However, the MM Minotaur Lore DC 15 (MM p 191) states that the civilized minotaurs are smaller than savage minotaurs. Perhaps keep the MM default for the civilized ones and save the higher figures for the savage minotaurs?
That said, I do like your departure from Constitution to Wisdom/Charisma as the secondary attribute. Low cunning has long been part of the minotaur portfolio, and I like the idea of them branching out into the Warlord class.
Goring Charge: Would the Attack be “Strength +3” (+2 prof + 1 charge)?
I have long thought minotaur characters have some interesting core challenges.
A tweak or two to consider--
RACIAL TRAITS
Bullheaded: You have a +2 racial bonus to your Intimidate skill, a -3 racial penalty to your Diplomacy skill, and a +1 racial bonus to your Will Defense.
(The first speaks to their size and strength in general, the second to their bluntness, perceived arrogance, and the suspicion with which other races regard them. The suggested penalty specifically dovetails with the Skill Focus feat to net out to zero. The third is a consistent theme element. Overall, I consider this a slight gain for the minotaur, as defense modifiers are IMO worth more than skill modifiers.)
Dimwitted: You cannot take any Intelligence-based skills when you choose a class. You must use the Skill Training feat to acquire Intelligence-based skills. In addition, you have a -2 penalty to Intuition skill checks.
(Again, snuggling up to the MM descriptive text and adapting it to a PC treatment. This also provides something of a cultural rationale for the stress on honor—falling for lies and fast talk might be a racial vulnerability for which they have compensated socially.)
Fearless: This aspect may need strengthening. Maybe make Battle Courage a race trait…
Battle Courage => The Bold racial trait (cf Halflings).
(The fearlessness of minotaurs strikes me as a core racial trait – a 45% vulnerability to fear as a racial default just seems too high to me.)
Battle Courage, the feat, might instead add a +2 feat bonus to fear saves and a +1 feat bonus to Will defense.
(This would boost fear saving throws to 90% with the feat, leaving room for a power or enhancement bonus before the save becomes completely automatic. Note that, in sum, the suggestions actually raise Will Defense by +2 total. Also one gets the chance to pick between this feat and Iron Will, which allows some incremental slanting within the race.)
IMO the good & bad of this small package mostly nets out, and captures a bit more of the classic archetype.
On the off-chance minotaur PCs turn out to be too powerful, here is another racial item you might add if you need it:
Naturally Clumsy: You have a -2 racial penalty to Stealth and Acrobatics, and a -2 racial penalty to Bluff.
(Can you say “bull in a china shop”? I know we don’t like to lumber PCs with disadvantages in 4e, but not putting them in when it’s thematic ultimately narrows the range of effects we can create--like an artist throwing away half his palette.
That said, to soften this trait, I’d throw out the Acrobatics penalty first. Favoring a Bluff penalty may seem counterintuitive, but may be more in keeping with both the honorable truthiness of the race and would tend to discourage minotaurs from, say, using feints in a fight. Subtlety is not a racial strongpoint. On the other hand, if implementing all of these puts too much drag on the race, then this is the first trait I’d throw under the bus.)
[Extra For Savage Minotaurs]
There are so many differences between the “savage” and “civilized” minotaurs that it may be best to assume PCs will be of the civilized variety for now – and leave the savage ones until we get an official barbarian build.
For example, the savage minotaurs should probably have the following from their demonic blood.
Demonic Senses: You have low-light vision and a +1 racial bonus to Perception skill checks.
(OK, so I filed the serial numbers off Dragonborn Senses. Sue me.)
(This makes them both better suited for a subterranean environment and echoes the tendency for civilized individuals to lose some of the finely tuned senses that primitives retain.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MINOTAUR FEAT IDEAS
HEROIC TIER
Horn Slash
Prerequisite: Minotaur.
Benefit: You can use a move action to slash with your horns as a primary attack. You gore an adjacent opponent for 1d6 + 2 + Strength modifier damage.
(This gives the horns a combat feat that allows scope for tactical positioning. Note: The +2 is the horn proficiency bonus.)
(I confess I’m a little confused by the MM horn damage – deducting the Strength mod only leaves a +1 proficiency bonus for the horns, which seems low. I like your +2 better. Maybe someone from WotC would like to comment on how monster stats were built? Maybe use the minotaur as an example?)
PARAGON TIER
Rampaging Bull
Prerequisite: Minotaur.
Benefit: At the instant you are bloodied, you can choose to declare a rampage. While rampaging, your melee attack has a +1 bonus and your damage has a +2 bonus. While you rampage you may use features, feats, powers, and exploits that either can cause damage or that move you closer to your opponents, but none other. At the end of your first turn in which you not make a melee attack with your standard action, the rampage ends. If you have more than one feat or power that can be triggered in this way, then you must choose one at most.
(This requires the minotaur to keep moving forward and attacking if he wants to keep the bonuses going. I expect players will have fun coming up with combinations to maximize their duration here. The wording is precise here, to allow players to fiddle with, say, action points.)
Relentless Pursuit
Prerequisite: Minotaur.
Benefit: When an adjacent opponent steps, shifts, slides, is pulled, or is pushed away from you, you may immediately follow the opponent up to two squares, shifting into squares the opponent vacates. This shift does not subject you to attacks of opportunity. You may use this feat once per round.
(I favor deliberately allowing the minotaur the ability to outrun his support – then find out if the player is astute enough to compensate. I hope they are, I like to see them win.)
(Something interesting happens with teleport here. The only square vacated by a teleporting opponent is the one he stood in. As he never enters other squares between that one and his destination, the minotaur advances only one square.)
( “Duh…Where’d he go?”
)EPIC TIER FEATS
Epic Direction Sense (replaces Maze Immunity)
Prerequisites: Wis 15, any two feats that increase your Perception skill.
Benefit: You are never lost. You can unerringly find your way to any location that you have actually been to. You are immune to the effects of the Maze power and similar magic or psychic effects. This feat does not reveal compass directions and functions only when you have a specific destination (a location) in mind. You can get an directional intuition by using a minor action.
(I am not certain that this should be restricted to minotaurs, though I don’t offhand recall any other specific monsters that have this ability. The directional indication is on the order of “ that-a-way ... (*points*)
(Actually, two perception adds are pretty easy, three might be more in line with an Epic Tier ability. Don't have a good enough handle on the opportunity costs of different advancement trees yet to comment.)
Implacable Nemesis
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Relentless Pursuit.
Benefit: You can replace one of your At-Will exploits with the Implacable Nemesis feat exploit for an encounter. You can decide to replace your exploit any time in the encounter before you use it, but you cannot replace an At-Will exploit you have already used in the encounter.
Implacable Nemesis Feat Exploit
Encounter + Martial
Free Action Melee
Trigger: Your Relentless Pursuit leaves you adjacent to your original opponent.
Effect: You may gore, bull rush, or trample your opponent immediately, as if you had charged. If you are marked by someone other than your opponent, you ignore that attack penalty when you make this attack. You are still subject to any damage ignoring a mark may deal.
("As if you had changed" means you get the +1 attack bonus. You don't have to go the charge distance, that's the 'as if' part.)
Mind Surge
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Wisdom 13+, Con 15+
Benefit: You can, with a great effort of will and stamina, throw off certain conditions that hinder you. At the end of your turn, you can use three of your personal healing surges to gain a +5 saving throw bonus against a dazed, dominated, psychic, or mind-affecting continuing condition. If you have less than three personal healing surges remaining, then you cannot use this feat. If you fail, the healing surges are still expended. You can use this feat only once per day.
(I’m not completely satisfied with the cost on this one. It has to hurt without being crippling. The suggested cost can be not quite offset by one selection of the Durability feat. Seems about right to me but needs testing. Although I think Con is more important to this feat than Wis, I consider a change to Wis 15/Con 15) without impact, balance-wise.)
Superior Senses
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Perception 21
Benefit: When the DM announced you are surprised, you can immediately roll a Perception check. If it is successful, then you are not surprised. Otherwise, you are surprised. You can use this feat once per surprise situation.
(The wording here specifically allows for an encounter with multiple surprises. The minotaur would check for each. The is based on an earlier edition minotaur description that gave flat immunity to surprise. Automatic effects are tremendous leverage points in a game, and any time you can get rid of one, it's usually a good thing. Unless, of course, an automatic effect has greater plot potential--for example, the direction sense ability, which has a wonderful effect toward focusing party travel.
For example, in 4e, a flyer going above its maximum altitude automatically crashes. Hmm...I have a power that pushes opponents--
"Mr. DM, I'm pushing that red dragon...UP!")
Third Wind
Prerequisite: Minotaur. Constitution 13+
Benefit: Once per encounter, at the instant you are bloodied, you may expend one of your healing surges as a free action. You do not get the defensive bonuses of a second wind. If you have more than one feat or power that can be triggered in this way, then you must choose one at most.
(and for a bit of anime…)
Sundering Strike
Prerequisite: Strength 20, Axe Mastery, two-handed axe or hammer.
Benefit: In one encounter, you can replace one of your Daily powers with the Sundering Strike exploit, which has two versions. You chose which form the strike takes when you use it. You can use this feat only once per day, and using this feat expends the daily power as well.
Sundering Strike Feat Exploit
Daily + Martial
Standard + Move Melee Weapon
Effect: You attempt to destroy an object or barrier with a single mighty blow. You spend a move action taking the proper stance and an standard action to deliver the strike itself. If your strike is successful, a door or portcullis is shattered to flinders, a wall is sufficiently breached for you to walk through, a ship’s mast is felled, a bridge section collapses, or so on (see the DMG p.64 for information on breaking down doors).
Alternately, you can strike the ground, creating a Sundering Burst that affects opponents..
Sundering Burst Feat Exploit
Daily + Martial
Standard + Move Melee Weapon
Attack: Str. vs. Ref.
Hit: 2d8 thunder damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Special: The burst travels in a straight line just below ground level. It is one square wide and 12 squares long. However, it stops at non-earth obstacles, such a stream, ditch, or moat. A blocking land construction, such as a wall, a rampart, or a barricade suffers a Sundering Strike at DC +2 and stops the burst short as well.
Effect: Everyone except you who is on the ground and in or adjacent to the burst area must make a saving throw or fall prone.
(This needs to be as cinematic as possible. The main use is to make a spectacular entrance into a climactic fight.)
(Hmmm... Can you say Wind Scar? Thought so.)
RECOMMENDED MINOTAUR FEATS from PH
(These are not required, but are typical minotaur selections.)
(H) Alertness, Durable, Powerful Charge, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Endurance, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Intimidation, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Nature, Skill Training (and Skill Focus) Perception, Tough--
(P) Blood Thirst, Combat Anticipation, Danger Sense, Deadly Axe, Devastating Critical--
(E) Axe Mastery, Epic Resurgence, Triumphant Attack.
By the way, my two favorite fiction books about minotaurs are:
Day of the Minotaur by Thomas Burnett Swan, and
Ashes of the Sun by Hanovi Braddock.
The first uses a traditional Greek (fey) setting.
The second is a MtG novel that details a minotaur culture (the dialog here is so well done that you can often identify individual minotaurs by their spoken lines).
As regards the former, one possible variation that might be explored is a Fey background, picking up the Fey Origin trait text from the Eladrin.
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--From the OD&D Book "Monsters & Treasure"
"The Minotaur is classically a bull-headed man (and all of us who
have debated rules are well acquainted with such)..." lol!
Thanks for the input.
On Mighty Swing:
I personally, IMO, don’t see this as a balance problem.
Look at “Tide of Iron”
• At-Will
• 1[W]+STR + Push 1 + Shift 1
• Requires a shield (+2 AC), so max damage will be 1d10
Now “Mighty Swing“
• Feat
• 1[W]+STR + Push 1
• Requires a 2H weapon, so lose AC bonus and do max damage of 1d12 (or 2d6).
By taking the feat it allows a Minotaur to gain ½ of the special ability of Tide of Iron. Even for a Fighter, you are in effect losing 2 AC to gain up to +2 damage (an average of only 1pt).
The only place I can see this possibly being unbalanced is that it can affect any attack, including other powers. However, in all reality this is simply a Metapower feat like Weapon Focus, Astral Fire, Dark Fury, Fast Runner, etc. I see it as basically balanced as Shield Push. The only way it might be more balanced is to state that you gain the “Push 1” on basic attacks. However, I think this would make it too weak for a feat.
On Ability Scores:
I have to agree on INT vs. CHA now that I have had more time to think about it. Since I haven’t had a lot of feedback on this it’s been hard to judge. However, I too have some difficulty seeing them as gaining an Intelligence bonus. Granted INT doesn’t affect characters the way it used to, but it does open a thematic door to more Minotaur wizards that I think should be normal. With CHA the arcane class of choice would be warlock, which thematically I see as more fitting. With that said, I do think I’ll swap this back to CHA, not INT.
On Direction Sesnse:
My only problem with Paragon tier is that I don’t think the feat is that powerful. Its an auto success on one very small aspect of a single skill. Useful yes. Game breaking, no.
On Natural Attacks:
The current version of the race still includes a basic Gore attack, treating it as a melee basic “weapon attack”. They are also retaining the Goring Charge power.
On Size:
I had been designing the race from a ‘homebrew’ viewpoint. The MM stats for the minotaur are very low for even a classic minotaur. Also, as was pointed out to me in my Risi racial thread, the weight listed in the MM for even 7’ is quite low. Granted if people want to use the data in the MM they can. This basically falls under the same discussion as languages. Just because the PHB lists only 10 languages and states that every creature that can speak, speaks common – doesn’t mean that all fan content needs to be the same. Maybe I’ll do 2 versions – a “purist” version and a “homebrew” version.
On Going Charge:
I had specifically not put the +1 attack bonus for a charge into the Power Description, since by listing “You must charge” I had assumed that all effects related to Charging would then be tacked onto the basics of the power. This also includes feats like Fast Runner, Powerful Charge, etc. Does that make sense? The problem I had is that if it states “You must charge” and the Attack is STR+3, people will still try to add the charge bonus on top of that.
On Bullheaded:
While I like the idea, and even though above I say that just because it’s not currently in the PHB doesn’t mean it can’t exist, one thing I think I like about 4E is the removal of inherent penalties. Thus I wouldn’t want to give a racial trait that dumps a -3 penalty on the race out the gate. However, with that said, I like this as a possible Heroic Tier Racial Feat.
On Dimwitted:
As above, this trait is REALLY painful in the 4E system. I don’t think the race really fits an INT bonus, but at the same time this trait makes them basically come across as dumb as rocks and that isn’t true. It also severely gimps any character who wants to make an Arcane minotaur PC which breaks with the core philosophy of any race … any class (which I personally think is a long time past due).
On another note, while I do like some of the ideas you have, many seem very rooted in the 3E mindset of heaping on negatives to ‘pay for’ more powerful traits. With that said, I personally haven’t ruled out a form of Flaw System for 4E where you might be able to buy such flaws for some minor boost. I haven’t used the system enough yet to see how much that would break the balance though.
On Battle Courage:
I like the idea that the minotaur PC can choose or not choose this ability. Not all minotaurs are warriors, and being fearless doesn’t seem to me a racial trait, but a trained trait. Thus, I don’t think it should be a full fledged racial trait. These aren’t bestial feral minotaur that are in the MM. The more I see, the more I think I need to specify in the 1st post that this is a ‘homebrew’ racial minotaur, not the bestial ‘monster’ minotaur.
On Horn Slash:
This breaks one of the cardinal design rules. Feats shouldn’t give you action type abilities, but bonuses or a specific reaction to a trigger. Also, it breaks the economy of actions in that you are granting an Attack from a Move Action. I think this would be better if written something like this:
“When you hit an enemy with your Gore weapon, an enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to your STR modifier.”
On Rampaging:
I think I personally want to hold off on a Rage-style power beyond perhaps a +2 damage when bloodied. Again, feats are supposed to be simple, and basically situational or flat bonuses, not powers unto themselves.
On Relentless Pursuit:
As with many of the other comments, I would simplify this. Perhaps make it a stacking feat to Mighty Swing, along the lines of ”When you use Mighty Swing and push a target, you may shift into the foe’s starting square.” This makes it so you take 2 feats to gain the benefits of Tide of Iron” with a 2H-Weapon.
On Epic Feats…
I’ll have to get to these another time. Need to be moving along but wanted to get something posted.
