New Race for Review - Minotaur (civilized)

A natual weapon is being used, but in the same way that the Dragonborn's breath weapon is a "natual weapon". You will notice that the Dragonborn cannot make a claw attack or a bite attack, even though every "humanoid dragon" race in 3.X had an actual Natural Weapon.

I point you to the fact that a PC Dragonborn cannot get wings and the Dragonborn in the MM can.

I personally feel that these are bad arguments. Why?

A dragonborn’s breath weapon is a special ability, a breath weapon, not a part of their body like a claw or a bite. Looking at the dragonborn in the MM, none of them get any form of natural weapon attack. They don’t bite, they don’t claw. From the level 5 to level 23 they all use weapons; period. Minotaurs on the other hand use their horns/gore as an At-Will attack.

To my view, any way you want to look at – the minotaur DOES use its gore/horns as a weapon. I already decided to give the option as feats though, but it does follow the pattern that minotaurs have a “natural weapon” even if it isn’t Mechanically coined with that term.

The same argument could go for other creatures.

As you pointed out I agree that Lizardoflk should NOT have a claw or bite attack since NONE of the MM entries have any such attack. They all attack with weapons (spears, clubs, blowgun). However, there ARE lizardfolk in the MM that use a Tail Slap as an At-Will attack. This IS a “natural weapon” (again even if it isn’t coined with that term), so an argument could be made to give such an attack to a Lizardfolk PC as an Encounter power in the same way Minotaur gets Goring Charge as an Encounter Power from its parent MM entry’s At-Will power. I would go so far as to say that Lizardfolk could also gain the appropriate bonuses to unarmed attacks based on the use of their tail as a weapon (it does more damage than a minotaur’s horns after all).

Another example is the Lycanthrope. They DO have natural attacks. They specifically get a “Bite” attack as an At-Will. This all follows the same arguments as above. Any way you want to look at it, “natural weapons” do exist in 4E, they are just polished up and tucked neatly into the power system that all creatures use. There is really no reason a creature like a Lycanthrope couldn’t get a racial ability along the lines of this.

Bite Attack – Lycnathrope Racial Power
You use your naturally strong jaws and sharp teeth to tear into your foe.
At-Will
Standard Action -- Melee 1
Target:
One creature
Attack: Strength +2 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 (or 1d4)+ Strength modifier damage.

As for dragonborn getting wings in the MM and not the PHB. That’s a real stretch. “Technically” it’s true yes. However, the only MM dragonborn that gets wings are the Dragonborn Champions, which are level 26. For a PC that would be part of an Epic Destiny or an Epic Feat. Since there are no Epic Racial feats yet, or Racial Epic Destinies yet – we can’t really say if a dragonborn PC will be able to get them or not. I am willing to bet they will. It will come in a following book like the Draconomicon or an Advanced Races splatbook like the “Races of” series of 3X where they do more to deepen and expand on the races. I am certain we will see splatbook expansions with Racial Feats, Racial Paragon Paths and Racial Epic Destinies.
 

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My stance is that natural armour/attacks for PC playable races have been intentionaly removed from this edition of D&D. Whether or not I am right can be debated (To my knowledge, none of the rulebooks say "Note to players of the old editions: Natural Armour/Attacks have been removed etc etc"), but if I am right then giving a homebrewed race natural armour/attacks is a no-no regardless of how little it seems to effect the game; at least if you want the homebrew to be an "edition legal" homebrew, and not just a homebrew you're droping in your own personal game for kicks-and-giggles.

They have been removed intentionally from the PHB1 and MM1, not the game, unless I've missed an announcement to that effect. Summoning was intentionally removed from the PHB1 and MM1--but it's going to be in later books.

Alright. Hold on a second here. Are you really suggesting that the Minotaur will be the only race with a Natural Attack? "It's isolation is what makes it unique"? No other race will have a natural attack and that is what will make the Minotaur a unique PC race?
I ask because the problem I'm seeing is that every second homebrewed race has a natural attack (werewolf/lycanthopes, lizardfolk and other "draconic-humaniod-races-that-aren't-dragonborn", etc, etc). I can hardly see any way to make a case that the Minotaur should be the one and only race to get a natural attack.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm arguing that a given ability being unique (at least so far) is a feature, not a bug, and while I was using a bit of hyperbole suggesting that only the minotaur would have it, the point remains that a race having a "schtick" like natural weapons or an eladrin's teleport is a good thing rather than a bad thing.

If that is what you are saying, and you can come up with even a semi-plausible reason for the Minotaur to be the only race with a natural attack, then I'll conceed all my points and all my base will belong to you. I'm serious.

I'll get to work on that, then. ;)

Also, on the topic of abilities that are unique to a race and thus make the race more interesting: What does giving the Minotaur a Natural Attack really do?
Does it make the Minotaur unique and interesting? (I would say definitely not)
Does it give the Minotaur an ability it would not otherwise have? (My answer is no: a natural attack is simply an unarmed attack in 4e. Crunchwise it doesn't matter if its the halfling punching you in the chops, the dragonborn biting your neck, or the minotaur goring you midsection: it's all an unarmed attack that does 1d4 dmg. It's not like the minotaur can't gore you just because it doesn't have an ability called "Gore")
Does it help balance out the Minotaur? (again, no)
Is is needed for the "suspension of disbelief"? (not unless your disbelief revolves solely around what dice you roll for what).

The natural attack is basically the equivalent of having a short sword attached to your forehead--a halfling can punch you, but it's just a punch; a dragonborn can bite you, but its teeth are basically a human's or a dog's teeth, sharpness-wise; a minotaur, however, can gore you with the freaking horns, as you pointed out before. ;) While I don't care about minotaurs in particular getting natural weapons to represent their horns, it's the principle of natural weapons that sets a race apart. Granted, it's something effectively invisible in-game (like the elf's reroll), nothing blatantly different, but it's something players would appreciate.

As to being overly cautious and broadening my horizons...Well, I've played in a couple games where people where "play testing" homebrewed races with somewhat...unique...abilities (I'm talking 3.x here). Both times it turned out horribly, as far as I'm concerned (the people who played the characters would argue that fiercly, but that's beside the point). Both times the homebrews were overpowered and made the rest of us look like, well, like pre-TOB fighters compared to Clerics/Durids/Wizards. The campaigns were absolutely no fun because of this.
It has also been my experience that 99.9% of homebrews lean more towards the overpowered part of the spectrum and only 0.01% lean towards the underpowered portion of the spectrum. That makes me cautious.

Ah. Well, speaking as an experienced homebrewer whose players think most of my stuff is pretty well balanced, I'd point out that you need to differentiate concept from implementation.

In the wrong hands, natural weapons could be massively overpowered. "Minotaur horns? 3d8 damage, +5 to attacks, easy. They're freaking minotaur horns!" They could also be underpowered. "Minotaur horns? Those unwieldy things? Sure, 1d6 damage, but a -3 to hit. You can't maneuver those things at all!" The concept of natural weapons, however, is simply "weapons that always present and cannot be disarmed or sundered, but also cannot be enchanted." The concept of natural weapons is a good one, but individual implementations may be over- or underpowered and should be looked out for. Just because the last two DMs who you playtested [concept X] for sucked at balancing stuff doesn't mean a new DM might be very good at it and make a wonderful [concept X] that you might want to use in all of your games.
 

Why did I spend this much time arguing this point?

I personally feel that these are bad arguments. Why?

A dragonborn’s breath weapon is a special ability, a breath weapon, not a part of their body like a claw or a bite. Looking at the dragonborn in the MM, none of them get any form of natural weapon attack. They don’t bite, they don’t claw. From the level 5 to level 23 they all use weapons; period. Minotaurs on the other hand use their horns/gore as an At-Will attack.

To my view, any way you want to look at – the minotaur DOES use its gore/horns as a weapon. I already decided to give the option as feats though, but it does follow the pattern that minotaurs have a “natural weapon” even if it isn’t Mechanically coined with that term.

The same argument could go for other creatures.

As you pointed out I agree that Lizardoflk should NOT have a claw or bite attack since NONE of the MM entries have any such attack. They all attack with weapons (spears, clubs, blowgun). However, there ARE lizardfolk in the MM that use a Tail Slap as an At-Will attack. This IS a “natural weapon” (again even if it isn’t coined with that term), so an argument could be made to give such an attack to a Lizardfolk PC as an Encounter power in the same way Minotaur gets Goring Charge as an Encounter Power from its parent MM entry’s At-Will power. I would go so far as to say that Lizardfolk could also gain the appropriate bonuses to unarmed attacks based on the use of their tail as a weapon (it does more damage than a minotaur’s horns after all).

Another example is the Lycanthrope. They DO have natural attacks. They specifically get a “Bite” attack as an At-Will. This all follows the same arguments as above. Any way you want to look at it, “natural weapons” do exist in 4E, they are just polished up and tucked neatly into the power system that all creatures use. There is really no reason a creature like a Lycanthrope couldn’t get a racial ability along the lines of this.

Bite Attack – Lycnathrope Racial Power
You use your naturally strong jaws and sharp teeth to tear into your foe.
At-Will
Standard Action -- Melee 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength +2 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 (or 1d4)+ Strength modifier damage.

As for dragonborn getting wings in the MM and not the PHB. That’s a real stretch. “Technically” it’s true yes. However, the only MM dragonborn that gets wings are the Dragonborn Champions, which are level 26. For a PC that would be part of an Epic Destiny or an Epic Feat. Since there are no Epic Racial feats yet, or Racial Epic Destinies yet – we can’t really say if a dragonborn PC will be able to get them or not. I am willing to bet they will. It will come in a following book like the Draconomicon or an Advanced Races splatbook like the “Races of” series of 3X where they do more to deepen and expand on the races. I am certain we will see splatbook expansions with Racial Feats, Racial Paragon Paths and Racial Epic Destinies.


I'm sorry Khaalis, but all your arguements seem to be "The MM says that they get it, so I'm giving it to them". But you're forgetting that Monster Races =/= PC races. Not in 4e, anyway.
That was one of the major problems with monstrous PC races in 4e. To adequately balance the use of the montrous race as a PC race you needed level adjustments. I hope you can agree that level adjustments have been removed from 4e.
The lowest level Minotaur in the MM is a level 10 Soldier. You are trying to make a PC race that reflects the MM entry, but you seem to be more interested in making the race an accurate reflection of the MM entry and you don't seem to be as interested in making a balanced PC race. That is a mistake. It's a mistake because that is a 3.x mindset.

Aside: Many people who don't like 4e point to the fact that you can't make two monsters fight in 4e. They point to rediculous battles, like a Wolf against the Terrasque and say "If the wolf rolls a 20, and has another wolf flanking for combat advantage, then the wolf knocks the Terrasque prone. That's INSANE. 4e is completely stupid!!!"
The problem is that they are looking at the MM in a 3.x mindset. In 4e, monsters aren't designed to fight monsters. The reason behind that is the designers said "Monsters are there to fight PCs, not to fight each other, so we aren't going to design them to fight each other". If they had designed them to fight each other, they simply would have added "...knocked prone, if the target is large or smaller" to the wolf entry.
In the same way, monsters were not designed to be PC races in 4e. PC races were not designed to be monsters, either. The MM entries for the Player's Handbook races have different designs. The Human Berserker has a "Battle Fury" attack, but that doesn't mean you should give all PC humans a "Battle Fury" attack. (Yes, I know that's a bit of a stretch, but I hope you get my meaning).
I believe the design philosophy behind the "Racial Traits" (pg 276) in the MM is to give a plausible PC race of the same FLAVOR as the MM entry. Again, Monsters are designed TO BE MONSTERS ONLY. You can't just say, "I would go so far as to say that Lizardfolk could also gain the appropriate bonuses to unarmed attacks based on the use of their tail as a weapon (it does more damage than a minotaur’s horns after all)." because what you are really saying is "The MM entry IS the PC race". That is wrong.
(Note also that only ONE of the Lizardfolk MM entries can use it's tail as a weapon. You are suggesting that ALL Lizardfolk PCs should get a "Natural Weapon" based off of that.)
/Aside

Now, I like the feats you wrote up for the "natural attack". I definitely think that racial feats are more appropriate for this sort of ability than just making the ability part of the base racial abilities. I would suggest the same thing for any other homebrew PC race of a MM entry.



....I just finished writing all this and I said to myself:
"Verision, have you even LOOKED at the MM entry for the Minotaur?" and I answered myself "Well, I looked at the Minotaur in the Racial Traits section (pg 276), and I've glanced at the MM entry on pages 190-191, but have I really gone over it with a fine tooth comb?".
"No", I answered.
So, I says to myself, I says "You'd better take a good long look at that"
So I do and, low and behold, THE FRIGING MINOTAUR IN THE MM DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A FREAKING GORE ATTACK (aside from the goring charge which is what the PC minotaur gets anyways). You're trying to give the monster a Natual Weapon and it doesn't even have one in the MM. Heck, your "Lizardfolk get a tail slap at-will" makes more sense than this arguement we've been having. I give up. I'm going to subway.
 

Verision said:
....I just finished writing all this and I said to myself:
"Verision, have you even LOOKED at the MM entry for the Minotaur?" and I answered myself "Well, I looked at the Minotaur in the Racial Traits section (pg 276), and I've glanced at the MM entry on pages 190-191, but have I really gone over it with a fine tooth comb?".
"No", I answered.
So, I says to myself, I says "You'd better take a good long look at that"
So I do and, low and behold, THE FRIGING MINOTAUR IN THE MM DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A FREAKING GORE ATTACK (aside from the goring charge which is what the PC minotaur gets anyways). You're trying to give the monster a Natual Weapon and it doesn't even have one in the MM. Heck, your "Lizardfolk get a tail slap at-will" makes more sense than this arguement we've been having. I give up. I'm going to subway.

:erm:

"Hey, EL, it looks like Verision hasn't read the monster description of the Minotaur! Hah! How could he make an argument based on that!"

"Well, EL, have you read the MM description of the minotaur?"

"Of course I've read the MM, EL! I read through the first day I got it! You--er, I--know that!"

"But did you read the minotaur entry?"

"Of course! I thoroughly examined each and every monstrous race!"

"I mean the minotaur monster entry."

"Well...uh...no. I was looking more at the new monsters. Why?"

"Verision says the minotaur doesn't have a natural attack!"

"He says it doesn't have a natural attack!? That's the dumbest thing I've ever...it doesn't have a natural attack?"

"Nope."

"...really?"

"Nope."

"So why am I arguing for including a natural attack on the minotaur again, EL?"

"Because including natural attacks in the game is a good idea, of course."

"I thought so. So--"

"...assuming, of course, that the base monster has the natural attack."

"Ah."

"So not in this case."

"Not on the minotaur?"

"Not on the minotaur."

"...do you think Verision would mind if I left too and joined him at Subway?"
 

Well, at least I wasn't the only one

:erm:

"Hey, EL, it looks like Verision hasn't read the monster description of the Minotaur! Hah! How could he make an argument based on that!"

"Well, EL, have you read the MM description of the minotaur?"

"Of course I've read the MM, EL! I read through the first day I got it! You--er, I--know that!"

"But did you read the minotaur entry?"

"Of course! I thoroughly examined each and every monstrous race!"

"I mean the minotaur monster entry."

"Well...uh...no. I was looking more at the new monsters. Why?"

"Verision says the minotaur doesn't have a natural attack!"

"He says it doesn't have a natural attack!? That's the dumbest thing I've ever...it doesn't have a natural attack?"

"Nope."

"...really?"

"Nope."

"So why am I arguing for including a natural attack on the minotaur again, EL?"

"Because including natural attacks in the game is a good idea, of course."

"I thought so. So--"

"...assuming, of course, that the base monster has the natural attack."

"Ah."

"So not in this case."

"Not on the minotaur?"

"Not on the minotaur."

"...do you think Verision would mind if I left too and joined him at Subway?"


I guess all my base will never belong to you then, eh?
Don't feel too bad, though. If you meet me at Subway, I'll buy you a sub.
*Verision starts singing "Five dollar foot long" under his breath*

P.S. Very nice presentation of the inner monologue. I nearly soiled my undies laughing.
 


I guess all my base will never belong to you then, eh?

I can still attempt a rationalization, if you want. I've got a pretty good idea what it would be already; I just need to flesh it out and structure it as a logical proof and we'll be set. ;)

P.S. Very nice presentation of the inner monologue. I nearly soiled my undies laughing.

Thanks. The color-coded "theater directions" format follows that of my very popular Warlock Fluff thread on the Wizards boards (which I'm quite proud of and like to brag about at every opportunity ;)), a huge story about, guess what, a warlock, and--you know what? I'll just post it on these boards too. Spread the enjoyment around and all that.

[/derail]

But I'm glad you liked it.
 
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Rationalize away

I can still attempt a rationalization, if you want. I've got a pretty good idea what it would be already; I just need to flesh it out and structure it as a logical proof and we'll be set. ;)

I would be quite interested to hear it, especially after reading (some) of that warlock thread you mentioned (you seem to have a ...flare for words)

Thanks. The color-coded "theater directions" format follows that of my very popular Warlock Fluff thread on the Wizards boards (which I'm quite proud of and like to brag about at every opportunity ;)), a huge story about, guess what, a warlock, and--you know what? I'll just post it on these boards too. Spread the enjoyment around and all that.

[/derail]

But I'm glad you liked it.

At least you're not modest about it.
[derail] I would use a smiley here to show you I'm joking, except for one small problem: I Fing HATE smileys. I don't know where my irrational hatred of all things smiley started; maybe it was that annoying ad that some websites have; maybe its just the idea of ascii faces; maybe it's just the fact that your emoticons are no match for my deceptacons. I'm not sure. But I do know that I have an irrational hatred for them; them and anyone that says "Dawg" and actually means it.....[/derail]
 

I would be quite interested to hear it, especially after reading (some) of that warlock thread you mentioned (you seem to have a ...flare for words)

When I get home from work and have time to compose it, I'll put it up here.

And I'm surprised that so many people find my writing so amazingly uberly (etc. etc. etc.) awesome; the warlock thing is the longest writing I've done that hasn't been for school (well, in PDF form it's 114 pages, so it's the longest thing including school stuff), and I'm more of a compscie/math/physics guy than a writer.

ANYWAY. I'm derailing, you're derailing, let's let the OP come back and have his say.
 

ANYWAY. I'm derailing, you're derailing, let's let the OP come back and have his say.

Already had my say, per say. I still think the argument could go either way, its totally up to interpretation and flavor.

On one hand, no the minotaur does not have a ":bmelee: Gore" attack. So I see the argument you make that the "minotaur doesn't have a gore attack."

However, where I think you are wrong in that assumption, is that they DO have a ":melee: Goring Charge At-Will" which does damage that is not based on its weapon and implies that it is a gore (thus using its horns). This is the ability that is ported over to the Player stats as an Encounter Power. One way or the other, it IS a Gore attack and it is a Staple (At-Will) attack for the minotaur in the MM.

This is why I agreed to remove the Gore Racial Trait, but add the option as feats. In my interpretation, they do have horns that they can use as an attack, and they get this by default in the form of their Goring Charge racial power. However, for flavor, fluff - whatever you want to call it, I do think that they should get the option for their horns to matter more - thus the feats.
 

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