New Race for Review - Minotaur (civilized)

[Khaalis]

Are there any powers that deal psychic damage that allow for saving throws? If not, then there's not much point to this feat. I was thinking of doing a +5 vs charm, even though that causes the minotaur to step on the eladrin's toes even more.

It’s not incredibly common now that I really dig through the books looking.

PHB
• ’Crown of Madness’ is both a psychic and charm “(save ends)” power.
• ’Whispers of the Fey’ is a psychic “(save ends)” power.
• ’Legion’s Hold’ is a both a psychic and charm “(save ends)” power.
• ’Destructive Salutation’ is a psychic “(save ends)” power.
MM
• Aboleth, Berbalang, Colossus, Green Dragon, Foulspawn, Ghost, Gibbering Beast, Githzerai, Grell, Night Hag, Homunculus, Lamia, Marut, Medusa, Mind Flayer, Naga, Deathpriest Hierophant, Rakshasa, Tiefling, Umber Hulk, Wraith, Yuan-ti,

I am sure there will be more once Psionics is released. However, I am thinking this would probably be more beneficial as follows:

Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur
Benefit: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Will defense against attacks with the Psychic or Charm keyword.

I guess we differ on this one then. I would have left it as a racial trait for consistency with the MM write-up, in full knowledge that it would rarely impact the game. Balance-wise it’s insignificant. In play, it’s notable and exciting on the rare occasions it has some effect, so why not? It’s flavor.

The only problem I have with this is that the MM version is meant to be a playable version of the monstrous minotaur described in the MM, whereas I am trying to make a differentiation between a more “civilized” minotaur race and their more feral brethren that appear in the MM. This follows the same kind of pattern with how a player Dragonborn or Tiefling differ from their respective MM entries.

I do however like the idea of “Extreme Ferocity”. I would write it up as follows, to avoid some confusion with the more feral version.

FIERCE REPRISAL – Heroic Feat
Prerequisities: Minotaur
Benefit: When you use your second wind power, you can choose to make a single melee basic attack against a threatened enemy. You heal normally as per second wind, but you do not gain the normal defense bonus from using second wind.

On Direction Sense: Points well taken.
I have since gone back to some of the “civilized” minotaur material (principally DL Taladas) and found that your take on the civilized minotaurs is a lot closer than my memory of that material.

I just managed to get a pdf copy of this source and will be reading over it as a I get the chance. I remembered some vague information about DL minotaurs but not a lot. I used what little I remembered along with some of the WoW Tauren and some Klingon to come up with the current rendition. I’ll really have to go through this book and see if there is anything else useful I can pull.

Maze Powers: This is so thematic for a minotaur that I am reluctant to let it go without at least one more suggested configuration:

Maze Intuition (Paragon)
Prerequisites: Minotaur, trained Perception.
Effect: You are immune to maze powers. Further, you can easily penetrate to the heart of a maze or labyrinth, or find its exit. When you are seeking one of these and stand at an intersection in a maze, using a minor action reveals the quickest way to your goal.
Special: Once you have walked a path in a maze or labyrinth, you can faultlessly retrace your steps.

I can see this as a workable feat. However I would make the prerequisites:

Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur, Trained in Perception, Direction Sense (Paragon Tier)
(possibly even add Natural Cunning or Skill focus)??

This makes it more of a “feat stack” and makes it a bit harder to get this benefit (which for any real dungeon crawl campaign, this is a BIG benefit). I also agree it shouldn’t be achieved earlier than Paragon.

The other small issue I have is “What defines a maze or labyrinth?”

I think this needs to be more clarified and made to be more simple to adjudicate, such as “any dungeon environment”?

Battle Lust
Prerequisite: Minotaur, Strength 17
Effect: When you bloody an opponent, you can take your second wind as a free action.
Special:[/]b You cannot use Battle Lust and Extreme Ferocity in the same round.

IMHO, I don’t think there is a need for the “Special” but I Would change from free action to Minor Action. This is more in line with the existing rules for second wind (i.e. the dwarf). However, I might push this to Paragon tier. I’m also not sure about the STR prerequisite. Why STR?

Racial Reduction Feats

I’m still not sure I am comfortable with feats that assign penalties. It goes against everything in the 4E design to date. Feats are meant to be bonuses, and the core design philosophy is give, not take (thus no Stat penalties). Also, as you stated I don’t think making a feat prerequisite “Can only be chosen at first level” as a real balancing factor as it seems to be something 4E has done away with. Feats should give smaller bonuses and take nothing away.

Racial Trait Senses: Another way to come at the traditional keen senses of a minotaur is with a racial trait.
• Keen Senses: When you choose a class, you can choose Perception as if it was a class skill.
This ensures that minotaur characters always have access to good perception if they want it. If they take a class that doesn’t support Perception that well, they can go with the race trait at the cost of being a little behind the curve in class skills. This trait does not alter the number of class skills chosen, which makes it balance-neutral in that respect.

Wouldn’t it just be easier to grant free Skill Training (Perception)?

Savage Minotaur: Want to ditch this archetype fast and easy? Change your page title to “Minotaur, Civilized” and you’re done.

Yes, but it’s not clean. The precedent is already set for the same name as well. As I mentioned above, the Dragonborn example is the racial name even though the PHB race and MM entries are different.

Giant’s Throw, Risi: Haven’t been there yet. As long as the critter is a monstrous humanoid, tops 7 feet or so, and has a torso on steroids and arms to match, it’s probably a decent fit. If the critter is giant-related, it’s an even better fit. While you are free to adapt to your home campaign, I would prefer this not be presented elsewhere as a one-race feat.

Aye. Risi are giant-kin.

I’ll comment on the rest later. Running out of response time for the moment.

 

[pukunui]

I am sure there will be more once Psionics is released.

I agree.

However, I am thinking this would probably be more beneficial as follows:

Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur
Benefit: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Will defense against attacks with the Psychic or Charm keyword.

That looks better. Of course, I'm already giving minotaurs a flat +1 to Will defence but that's because I'm keeping the Str/Con bonuses and, if the eladrin and warforged are anything to go by, WotC's logic is that if a race gets bonuses to two stats that feed into the same defence, then they should get something to compensate.

 

[Khaalis]

I've got to comment on this but mighty Blow is so good no two handed weapon fighter would not take it combine it with a polearm as well as polearm gamble and throw Heavy Blade oppurtunity on top you get

Push 1 square away you can now threaten that guy with polearm gamble if he approaches again and guess what when you attack him with the oppurtunity attack he gets pushed back again, I think this is the main reason tide of iron requires a shield, no reach and push at will abilities

Suggestion from myself just don't include it as is

Part of the entire point of the feat was to give a race who took fighter to have a small racial advantage. The fighter only has 6 powers that push (at levels 1, 13, 3 at 17, 19). A minotaur fighter would gain a small advantage over other race’s fighters in that they could gain a “Push 1” on more uses. However, so many people seem to think that it is too good. Thus here is the latest incarnation of the feat, greatly reducing its power. It keeps it to the flavor of the race’s preferred weapons and prevents the polearm combination.

MIGHTY SWING [Minotaur]
Prerequisites: Str 17, Minotaur (Heroic)
Benefit: When you hit with an attack when using a greataxe, you can push the target 1 square in addition to any damage you deal.

Horn Slash
By converting a move action into an attack action, we create the following cases:
1. A moving Minotaur may attack with his weapon, or
2. A moving Minotaur may attack with his horns (as an offhand weapon), or
3. A stationary Minotaur may attack with his weapon and horns (re feat).

This breaks one of the core design aspects of the combat round in that you can trade Down actions, but not Up, which is what you are granting (a move increased to a standard). The type of action you are describing here is better IMHO, as a power since it is effectively the same as the Cleave power, but you are giving a Power-like attack as a feat, which also breaks the basic rules of feats vs. powers.

With that said, I do like the new variation of Horn Slash. It effectively allows them to use “gore” as an off-hand style attack but fitting into the economy of action rules, simply granting a bonus to damage.

Gore Proficiency & Focus
Both descriptions ignore the possibility that the minotaur can make other types of unarmed attacks (such as a fist, kick, grab). Maybe gore should specify a horn attack.

This was the only way to get the concept to work. The system does not take into account anywhere for different types of unarmed attacks. It is always assumed that the creature is making the best possible unarmed style of attack for the situation (it left to the player and DM to describe the action, whether it as a fist to the face, a round-house kick to the chest, a knee to the groin, a slashing claw or a gore). The system only cares that it’s an “unarmed” attack, not what appendage is being used.

Natural Attack

It’s hard to tell what they assign as “proficiency” for natural attacks. I think it’s totally ambiguous when it comes to monsters. I don’t think they really grant anything in the way of ‘proficiency’ as a specific breakdown. I think ‘proficiency’ is taken into account in the attack formulas for Creature Role (such as Brute = +3, Skirmisher = +5, etc.)

Raging Bull

Not sure I’m keen on creating a feat that does the whole “no heal self” mode. This is more reminiscent of a Stance power. However, I do like the idea of using the Human Berserker mechanic as a feat “Raging Bull”.

RAGING BULL [Minotaur]
Prerequisites: Str 17, Minotaur (Heroic)
Benefit: When you are first bloodied in an encounter you may make a free melee basic attack with a +4 bonus to the attack roll and deals an extra 1d6 damage on a hit.

Relentless Pursuit

As you suggest, I think this Is too powerful for a feat, and should likely be looked at as a power. Perhaps a racial substitute utility power.

Natural Cunning

I think I am going to take this idea and run with it as follows, to reflect those minotaur with the affinity to labyrinths.

NATURAL CUNNING [Minotaur]
Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur (Heroic)
Benefit: You gain a +2 racial bonus to Dungeoneering and Perception skill checks.

if the eladrin and warforged are anything to go by, WotC's logic is that if a race gets bonuses to two stats that feed into the same defence, then they should get something to compensate.

I wholeheartedly agree here. The basic design seems to be that you should get 2 defense bonuses. If you happen to only get 1 from your stat bonuses, then you should get another +1 as a feature.

 

[redrover]

Updates to 7/15/late night:

On Ferocity: Oh. Yes, of course. Losing Ferocity is definitely in line with civilized minotaurs. (*D’oh*).

(At this point I will repeat the request for the “Minotaur, Civilized” heading. I need it to keep the types straight. Others might find it useful as well. My thought is always for conceptual clarity, and format, like form, should bow out to function—which it to keep a casual reader from mistakenly assuming that you’re detailing the savage minotaurs.)

Fierce Reprisal: Cool. Ready for testing, then?

Taladas: One base race write-up is in the Tales of the Lance boxed set (Ansalon). Most of the Time of the Dragon (Taladas) boxed set material is gazetteer-type world info, but interesting. I found the Krynn Minotaur in MC 4 Monstrous Compendium: Dragonlance Appendix a good summary of the basic/culture info. I’m still looking for a couple of the novels (they’re around here somewhere…really).

Maze Intuition: In general, I have no problem with this being part of a feat string (though I generally dislike strings longer than three or so). I would, however, peg your Direction Sense at Heroic level. It really has the effective power of that Tier as written, no higher, IMO.

I would just as soon withdraw Natural Cunning as configured from the table. What it brings is covered by your Racial Trait skill bonuses.

Requiring Skill Focus (Perception) in addition to training might be a little much for Paragon Tier. Perhaps it would be better to keep the Skill Focus something a minotaur might consider sometime at the Epic level.

A feat that requires the character to virtually maximize a skill just to access it stands outside my comfort zone. Fighting “power creep” requires vigilance, and this one trips a warning flag for me.

Epic Tier Minotaur Sense: If there is a string of sense feats, going from Heroic to Epic, it seems to me that the top of the string might well be the GPS ability.

The phrase “…never lost” turns up in minotaur-related material consistently. While it would probably be a racial trait or Heroic feat for savage minotaurs, it seems reasonable to me that even a civilized minotaur at the upper Tier of character power might manifest the ability, especially if it is something the player has to work on long-term.

I don’t have a concrete configuration at this point, but this seems an interesting line of inquiry.

Mazes Definition: In a game design, metagame sense, I would characterize a maze/labyrinth as follows:

• It has to be a construction. In other words, some intelligent entity created it.
• The intent of the creator was to create a maze.

In brief: intelligent design + intent -> labyrinth

This second point keys off the old AD&D 2e discussions of “what is a trap”, the definition of which was always a little tricky when adjudicating the find traps cleric spell. In that case, the intention of the trap-maker was a major element in the definition in order to exclude natural hazard conditions like a ravine subject to flash floods, etc.

IMO defining a labyrinth as “any dungeon environment” is far too broad.

Battle Lust: Great. Kill the special (like it less every time I see it). Minor action is good, too. Double great.

Why Strength: It one of the two main racial attributes. It slants the feat heavily toward the Defenders/Leaders. The Fortitude defense is based on either Strength or Constitution, so Strength here is not completely out of line. I wanted to reinforce the impression that the cool race benefits flow from the main racial attributes.

Why not Constitution? It is not a main racial attribute for this class build. It slants the feat heavily toward the Warlock class (Defenders/Leaders not supported).

(As always, function over form. In the first AD&D proficiency system (1.5e), Riding was a Wisdom-based proficiency, because Wisdom ruled all animal-related class abilities and skills. The effect, of course, was that the best rider in game was the Cleric, not the Cavalier. Foolish consistency on the small points can make you miss the big points.)

On Penalties: Fair enough. “No penalties” seems to be the order of the day in 4e. I repeat the opinion that throwing away half the palette limits our creativity. (I will admit to a strong role-playing streak and don’t mind eating a few penalties if it makes a more memorable character.)

Someone said once that what makes a hero interesting is his weaknesses, not his strengths, and I do buy into that sentiment.

However, the vogue of the day is “don’t give players penalties, it might hurt their feelings”. Bah! Suck it up and learn to roleplay, wimps!


(And I’ll quietly put away half my broken palette until the audience gets sick of this vanilla pabulum and decides to go full-spectrum.)


“Beginning Only” Feats: What drives a “beginning only” feat is not balance, but story consistency and world-sculpting. A feat becomes a “beginning only” feat when it doesn’t make sense for it to be developed by a character as part of an adventuring career. Another path is a feat that reinforces a regional origin for a character’s backstory.

For example, the concept of the dimwitted feat is that you’re not very smart, you’ve never been very smart, and that fact will impact your development as an adventurer in ways detailed by the feat.

It would rarely make much story sense to suddenly become dimwitted at, say, 8th level or so.

While it’s true that an individual case can be worked out (eg: someone dropped a rock on your head), that can lead to other problems, both internal (qy: now I have the feat benefit, why can’t I just get a cleric to heal that head injury?) and structural (how many times can you use the old “rock hit you” story before it gets so old the players groan just thinking about it?). But these are story issues, not balance issues.

A properly designed “beginning feat” should be balanced with respect to other feats. I agree with you that a “beginning only” configuration is no license or justification to create an unbalanced feat.

Even though there are no such feats in the core rules, the concept of the “beginning only” feat is too useful not to resurface in future.

Mere line consistency should bring it back into the Forgotten Realms line at least. There, it was used to define a specific regional background—you can only come from one place, and the regional characteristics can’t just appear in the middle of an adventuring career without looking illogical.

Beginning Only vs. 1st Level Feats: Last, one more matter can be sorted with respect to this type of feat. Many early examples were configured as “1st level only” feats. This designation breaks down with respect to the “beginning”-style feat once you have multiclass characters becoming “1st level” in a new class much later in their careers.

An example of a “1st level only” feat that is not a “beginning” feat is a hypothetical “latent psion” feat taken by a nonpsionic character as a prerequisite for a psionic class.

The two types are different and the distinction should be carried forward.

Free Perception Training: Easier, yes; also more inflationary, I think.
From a rules consistency standpoint (ie: have other races been given a free skill?) its no better than Eladrin Training, so no red flag there. Probably worth testing if you want to try it.

Late Note on Ferocity: While previously I have said that Ferocity might not be that useful, I have seen comments elsewhere that indicate differing mileage. So here are a few data points:

While the two Defenders in the local group haven’t gone down much, one squishy of four has been killed, all the others (including the replacement) have dropped at least once, and two have dropped multiple times.

In 9-10 significant combats (Keep adventure), we have been surprised 5 times by enemies within charge range, flanked 6 times, and taken front-and-rear once.

The attacks have seldom been well coordinated, and the party usually had solid tactics with flashes of inspired play, or things may have gone considerably worse for us. (We have an experienced group with a huge time investment in earlier editions.)

We seem to do poorly on both passive and active Perception checks (even with an elf Ranger); but on the other hand, the other skill checks we’ve encountered so far seem disproportionately difficult for the first adventure in a game line.

It is still very hard to tell which effects are from the adventure, which are from the DM, and which are systemic. Although the players don’t read modules before completion, I am really looking forward to the exercise this time.

Oh, and the characters are heavily twinked. No magic other than scavenged, but attribute modifier bonus total for each is around +20, about 2.5 x book. (Not my choice, I just swim in this pool.)

Later!

(PS: Third attempt. Two previous accidentally flushed.)

 

[pukunui]

Just in case anyone's curious ... after some discussion with the player of the minotaur fighter in my group, I've decided to leave the race write-up as it's written in the MM except that I'm giving a bonus +1 to Will defense (under the heading "Magic Resistant"). The main reason is that my player wants to try the minotaur as-is before I go about fiddling with it. Fair enough.

I'm leaving Ferocity in. I figure that while minotaurs in my world have learned to be "civilized" (although they tend to keep to themselves and live in semi-nomadic tribal groups), they still have some remnants of a less civilized past ... and when they're at death's door, that past surfaces in the form of the Ferocity racial feature.

On a side note, I'm really hoping that this minotaur PC survives all the way through Keep on the Shadowfell ... partly because the player lost every single one of his PCs in my last 3.5 campaign (Red Hand of Doom) and because I'll be able to develop some of his character background more when we start playing Thunderspire Labyrinth (he's already got it in his background that his character's father's lifelong search was to relocate the lost minotaur city under the Thunderspire).

 

[redrover]

On ‘old” Horn Slash: Good points on system break. Sometimes it takes me awhile to inch up the learning curve, but things are getting sorted. The new feat is getting closer to 4e.

Monster weapon proficiency: Hmm…Thought I saw a loose +1 bonus in the MM minotaur write-up a couple days ago. Can’t find it now. It looks like the original find was just brain-fuzz. So weapon proficiency with respect to horns is a non-issue, which means Horn Slash tweaks a bit more:

• Horn Slash (Heroic)
  Prerequisites: Minotaur, Gore Focus
  Benefit: You have trained to use your horns more effectively in close combat. If you get a melee hit on an opponent against whom you have combat advantage, you deal +2 points of gore damage.
• Special: At 11th level you deal +4 points of damage, at 21st level you deal +6 points of damage.

The damage numbers work out as follows: The base numbers come from the "+x" bonuses on the DMG p185 Damage Table (using 5th, 15th, and 25th levels), minus the damage bonus for Gore Focus, with which this feat is cumulative.

Unarmed Attacks vis. Gore Proficiency/Gore Focus: I’m missing your point here. The books don’t distinguish between types of unarmed attacks, it’s true, but sometimes the tactical situation will make certain types of attacks impossible: for example, a character caught in quicksand might punch, but couldn’t get off an effective kick; or a minotaur might have his horns lassoed but his legs free.

I’m uncomfortable with the assumption that PCs will always use the most effective attack form with respect to unarmed combat. I consider PC freedom of choice paramount, and that includes the freedom to make a sub-optimal attack. In fact, I think I would prefer the opposite: That, all things being equal, the default choice is sub-optimal – thus requiring player to take a positive action to get the optimal choice.

Finally, as a literalist, I think using “Gore” creates a strong expectation that the attack is specific to horns. If you want a generic unarmed combat bonus, it should just say “Unarmed Combat”.

I’m just not getting exactly how specifying horns (in a gore attack), somehow breaks the feat?


Raging Bull, re. Stance power: All this time, and I still haven’t found a page that defines “Stance.” I’m guessing at what it kinda, sorta, might be, but this is starting to drive me a little crazy. You wouldn’t happen to know a page reference, would you?

Feat vs. Power: One thing that has stopped me from looking more closely at new racial powers is that I’m not exactly sure how advanced “monster PC” powers should be presented.

All the core 4e powers seem to be class-based; all monster powers in the MM seem to be basic monster attacks or racial traits (though I haven’t been able to spend much time in this book, yet).

The compromise I’ve been moving toward in this discussion has been “feat unlocks advanced racial power” combined with a swap-in, but I’d be a lot more comfortable if there were other precedents in the published material for this approach.

I’d even be overjoyed to find a non-trait “book” avenue for advanced racial powers that I’ve missed, even though I’d feel a little stupid for not having found it yet.

Natural Cunning: Going with Dungeoneering seems inconsistent with the rest of the class build, since affinity for labyrinths seems to be a savage trait rather than a civilized one. The Maze Intuition feat takes care of exceptional civilized minotaurs crossing the civilized/savage divide.

I like the racial +2 Perception bonus, but would suggest maybe:

• Hunter’s Heritage: +2 Perception, +2 on saving throws vs. fear.

This supports above normal senses and above normal stubbornness, both of which I’ve always considered core minotaur racial traits.

Pukunui: Really nice insight!

(*scribbles in “Little Black Book of Design” *)

Do keep us posted. I am really curious about how Ferocity actually plays out for a PC. We’re rooting for your minotaur PC here!

Ta-ta!

 

[Khaalis]

Fierce Reprisal: Cool. Ready for testing, then?

I think its solid. Anyone playtesting can let us know. I don’t foresee any real problems.

Taladas….

I don’t have that much Dragonlance material. I own the original hardbound Dragonlance book (somewhere in storage crates in the basement) as well as the new 3.5 original hardbound book. I am attempting to accumulate some of the old material on PDF but don’t have much currently. What I have is a mix of 2E and 3E: Taladas the Minotaurs, Dragon Magic, Atlas of Dragonlance, Bestiary of Krynn, Campaign Setting, Dragons of Krynn, Holy Order of the Stars. I’m searching for others to fill in on some useful material but DL was never a big inspiration for a campaign world to me. Great story material but not such a great place to adventure in.

Mazes

Ok so what I have so far related to a minotaur’s maze/direction sense are:

HEROIC TIER
DIRECTION SENSE [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur, Trained in Perception
…..Benefit: You have an innate sense of direction and automatically succeed on all Nature skill checks made to determine direction.

NATURAL CUNNING [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur
…..Benefit: You gain a +2 racial bonus to Dungeoneering and Perception checks.

PARAGON TIER
MAZE INTUITION [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Wis 15, Minotaur, trained Perception, Direction Sense.
…..Benefit: You are immune to maze powers. Further, you can easily penetrate to the heart of a maze or labyrinth, or find its exit. When you are seeking one of these and stand at an intersection in a maze, using a minor action reveals the quickest way to your goal.
…..Special: Once you have walked a path in a maze or labyrinth, you can faultlessly retrace your steps.
Definition: A labyrinth is defined as any construction (whether , stone, etc.) meant to confuse those traversing the construction. Standard “dungeon” design does not carry this intent, though some do. This is left to the DM to adjudicate.

EPIC TIER
Toying with a “never lost” option, though to date there is only 1 Epic Tier racial feats to use as a guideline (warforged).

Battle Lust

Ok, STR makes sense now.

On Penalties: Fair enough. “No penalties” seems to be the order of the day in 4e. I repeat the opinion that throwing away half the palette limits our creativity. (I will admit to a strong role-playing streak and don’t mind eating a few penalties if it makes a more memorable character.) {Snip}

While on one hand I completely agree that penalties make for a richer mechanical development of the PC in question, it does go against everything set forth in the core precept of the 4E game design. Do I necessarily agree? No not really. Do I understand it? Yes. It’s meant to make the system cleaner and easier to balance. When you start throwing around negative modifiers it tends to start breaking the math in some not so expected ways, especially with systems that are already in a question of balance such as Skill Challenges.

As you say, I’m not ready to be the one to go take a left turn off plumb from the core design philosophy.

Beginning Only & 1st Level Only Feats

I agree on the usefulness of Beginning Only feats, however, I am not 100% certain they will see a revival in 4E. What I am breathlessly awaiting is the supposed “Backgrounds” from Forgotten Realms. I have been itching to add a “Background Package” option to PC creation that modifies languages, available skills, skill modifiers, etc. One issue I have is that not every member of a race is defined by their race, but as much by their culture. I have purposely held off on this aspect though, knowing that WotC is doing something “official” in the FRPG and I want to see where they go with it before I delve into it myself. Once we see where WotC goes with this, I’ll definitely revisit “Beginning Only” feats as they relate to cultural or racial backgrounds. I just am not comfortable crossing that ground quite yet in such a brand new system. (Especially considering some of the GSL style restrictions on what can and can’t be done with the system.)

To be honest, I think that this topic alone is a really good point for you to Fork into a new thread and get more people’s take on it since it won’t really get the required visibility here. I’d love to get a wider community view on this, but I won’t poach your territory on it, so it would be best if you forked it as the originator.

(PS: Third attempt. Two previous accidentally flushed.)

Friendly Suggestion - I SERIOUSLY recommend never writing a post in the actual boards. I always write them up using notepad, Word, etc. and then copy and paste them over once they are ready. This was a HARD learned lesson over the years.

Horn Slash

With this being the 3rd feat in a tree and based on needing combat advantage, I think we have a winner.

GORE PROFICIENCY [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Minotaur
…..Benefit: You gain proficiency with your using your horns as weapons. Treat your unarmed attacks as having a +2 proficiency bonus.

GORE FOCUS [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Minotaur, Gore Proficiency
…..Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your unarmed attacks. At 11th level this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level it increases to +3.

HORN SLASH [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Minotaur, Gore Proficiency, Gore Focus
…..Benefit: You have trained to use your horns more effectively in close combat. If you get a melee hit on an opponent against whom you have combat advantage, you deal +2 points of gore damage.
…..Special: At 11th level you deal +4 points of damage, and at 21st level you deal +6 points of damage.

On Stances

Stances are defined here (only place as far as I know): PHB p.55 – Effect Type
Stance: A stance power lasts until the end of the encounter, for 5 minutes, or until you use another stance power.

What I currently have for Raging Bull…

RAGIN BULL [Minotaur]
…..Prerequisites: Str 17, Minotaur
…..Benefit: When you are first bloodied in an encounter you may make a free melee basic attack with a +4 bonus to the attack roll and deals an extra 1d6 damage on a hit.

Feats vs. Powers

The precedent for “Racial Powers granted via Feats” would be:

Warforged DR364
• Paragon Feat – Improved Immutability
• Epic Feat – Warforged Fortification
Dragonborn DR365
• Paragon Feat – Dragonborn Zeal

Natural Cunning: Going with Dungeoneering seems inconsistent with the rest of the class build, since affinity for labyrinths seems to be a savage trait rather than a civilized one. The Maze Intuition feat takes care of exceptional civilized minotaurs crossing the civilized/savage divide. I like the racial +2 Perception bonus, but would suggest maybe:
• Hunter’s Heritage: +2 Perception, +2 on saving throws vs. fear.
This supports above normal senses and above normal stubbornness, both of which I’ve always considered core minotaur racial traits.

The only problem here is they already have a feat that can grant +5 to saves vs. fear. I’ve also seriously considered adding in the following as a racial trait:

Perceptive: You gain training in the Perception skill.

Together I think removes the need for Natural Cunning/Hunter’s Heritage. If they want a bonus to Perception they have normal feats available in the form of Skill Focus or Alertness.

Keeping the MM Minotaur

Sounds like a fair character, though I think it might still lack in overall Bang-for-the-Buck compared to the PHB races or the Warforged. Keep us posted on how it works out. I’ve got nothing against people using the MM entries as-is, I just think they all fall pretty weak compared to PHB races, and they are definitely in need of “tweaking” for certain homebrew campaign worlds. The classic “evil minotaur” of the MM just doesn’t fit my world. Everyone’s taste is different, which is why there are Homebrew/House Rule boards.

 

[pukunui]

Sounds like a fair character, though I think it might still lack in overall Bang-for-the-Buck compared to the PHB races or the Warforged. Keep us posted on how it works out. I’ve got nothing against people using the MM entries as-is, I just think they all fall pretty weak compared to PHB races, and they are definitely in need of “tweaking” for certain homebrew campaign worlds. The classic “evil minotaur” of the MM just doesn’t fit my world. Everyone’s taste is different, which is why there are Homebrew/House Rule boards.

He recognizes that the races in the MM are weaker than the ones in the PHB and he's happy to accept that. He sees it as the price you have to pay in order to play one of those races. Also, since he's already made his character and we've already started playing, I can see why he wouldn't particularly want me to change his character right now. He wants to see how the default rules (albeit with the single addition of the +1 to Will) work in actual play before I start tinkering - and I think he's concerned that some of the changes I am thinking of making will make the minotaur less appealing and will make him regret choosing it. He probably also doesn't like the idea of having a character that's constantly in flux while the DM tries to figure out what suits his world best. All of that's fair enough, so I'll just leave it alone for now. I'll tinker with the minotaur when he's ready for it -- or when no one is playing one in the campaign.

 

[redrover]

Stances: Thanks so much! I guess I was so focused on feats, I stopped looking under powers. (*Double D’oh*) (*kicks self*)


Anyhow, what I thought about stances was wrong, so the word “stance” in my feat ideas should be replaced. Seems to affect Sundering Strike, Giant’s Throw, and Tipping.

I will just have to find another term to use when a move action is expended to set up a feat, which is then completed with a standard action. “Deliberate attack?” “Combination attack”? “Complex attack?” Hmm…

((The concept would also fit an Aiming feat (sacrifice your move action for some bonus – better attack, better damage, better crit chance, etc. Maybe a feat chain that gives one of these at each Tier?) But that’s not really for minotaurs.))


General Note: Following and down with your comments up through ‘Beginning Feats. Cool.


FR Background Book: (*salivating*) Can’t wait!

Fork Thread: Maybe in future. Makes no sense to me to start a speculative discussion about stuff we know is in prep. IMO once we know it’s in prep, it’s too late for board talk to be useful—project is probably too far along. If someone from WotC was to start a thread…well, that would be different. As it is, I think it more useful to talk about topics that are not confirmed near completion.

Posts: Yeah, I write off-line, too. It’s just that sometime I get online and start editing a bit…

Horn Slash redux: Yep, I think it’s looking good.

Had a few new thoughts on the old unarmed/natural weapon/gore feat topic:

Unarmed vs. Gore Redux: I’ll take another stab at this concept from a slightly different angle. Remember the thought that the default should be the weakest attack?

Well, assume our weakest attack is the “generic” unarmed strike. No one would take one of these in deadly combat if a weapon was available. All nonspecific unarmed strikes deal the same amount of “generic” damage, as listed in the weapon tables. At this level, choice of unarmed attack mode (punch, kick, bite gore, etc.) is merely cosmetic and can be considered flavor description.

However, once we add a feat (or power) into this mix, we have added a definitional factor and an enhancement to a previously generic attack mode. The attack, when augmented by the feat, is no longer generic, by virtue of the special effects granted by the feat. Such an attack is better than the generic attack and may be a useful as a weapon attack.

The player’s choice to activate the feat has lifted the combat mode out of the “generic” category and into the category of a specific attack mode.
The attack can still be used generically if the feat is not used. However, if the feat is used, we have to look at the situation to see if the attack mode would be hindered or stopped by tactical factors.

If so, any local condition that stops the now-specific attack mode from being used also prevents the feat from being used. Another generic attack mode might be used according to the generic default attack rules, provided it is not also blocked by the existing tactical factor.

For example, Hammer Punch might be an unarmed combat power that delivers 2[W] + save vs. knockdown (prone), where the “weapon” is a hand dealing unarmed damage. The power might be an at-will, unlocked by the feat Pugilist.

Do we then get a whole path of attacks keyed to the feat Pugilist? How do you organize them in a book of say a dozen feat-based paths – by path, by chapter (feat chapter, power chapter), or some other scheme? Do we close a gateway feat or leave it infinitely expandable? How do advanced racial feats and powers fit into this scheme?

brief pause...





Khaalis: Did I mention that one impetus for the Tipping feat was your Mount thread? Will try to get a post up there over the weekend.

Raging Bull: Found a very old thread on half-orcs that I may weigh in on. Found an example in MM of same power with two different names: Minotaur Ferocity, Orc Death Blow. Recommended changing latter to Ferocity for the PC version, since a later Orc power is Inspire Ferocity.

If new Raging Bull is essentially the Human Berserker racial trait, I wonder if the existing MM name should be used. I’ve always thought it’s a bit confusing if the exact same ability has multiple names. Maybe should write around this. (Wag of the Finger to WotC for Dragonborn Senses, which locks what should be a generally available racial trait to one race).

Warforged: I’m pretty sure I don’t have access to DR364 here—is this material online?

Hunter’s Heritage, Fear: Well, a basic racial trait +2 save vs. fear is, perhaps, a little weaker than a +2 Skill bonus, since the application is more limited (but maybe not enough to be significant here) Let’s assume balance effect of "skill or save" is a wash.

We already take Racial Skill bonus + Training + Focus for skills without batting an eye, so I don’t see a big balance issue here.

Running the numbers, a +2 racial fear save gives the minotaur a 10% advantage over humans on a fear save, which is a reasonable boost for a racial advantage, and a total of 65% recovery success. Adding the feat at +25% brings the total to 90% recovery vs. fear, with racial and feat bonuses essentially out of the mix for further boosts.

This primarily leaves power and magic bonuses to get the minotaur over 100% recovery from non-boosted fear effects after single round. As I recall, attributes don’t affect saves at all.

This (the 90% level) is rather where I would expect minotaurs to be at their default level, which is 10th. (I’d be more comfortable with 80-85% than 90%, but am willing to take 90% as a working outside limit).

Perhaps, doing the racial +2 and shifting the +5 save to Paragon Tier could be considered.

New Idea: While the following was inspired by the minotaur buffed vs. fear, it also might be useful to minotaurs less so.

• Bull’s Fortitude (Heroic)
  Prerequisites: Minotaur
  Benefit: When you suffer a fear effect that would normally make you move (flee, shift, or so on), you can remain in your current square until the end of your next turn. If you make your saving throw vs. fear at that time, you recover normally; otherwise you suffer the forced movement.

(Originally I wanted to call this “Shake It Off”, but that’s taken by the Warlord. Effectively, the minotaur at 100%+ vs. fear can be paused, but not run off, which speaks to racial stubbornness. The other significant aspect is that while he’s shaking it off, the minotaur is effectively pinned in his square, which has other tactical consequences.)



Natural Cunning/Hunter’s Heritage: I have long suggested NC be canned. But HH I think is a really core for the race.

I seem to recall that some of your earlier drafts had a +2 Perception bonus as a racial trait. However, I’ve been letting your versions overwrite instead of keeping a copy of each, so I have no way to check this.

(*scribbles in “Little Black Book of Design* “Keep all versions.”).

That said, the Alertness and Focus bonuses, anyone can get. Minotaurs have always had exceptional perception/senses as a race, so a nominal racial boost over what the general run of characters can expect seems reasonable to me.

In 4e, that’s pretty much a +2 racial boost.

I guess what it boils down to is: of three bonuses (perception, dungeon proficiency, and fear save), which two are most thematic. For a civilized minotaur (surface dwelling, ship competent), I’d go with perception and fear save. Your mileage may vary.

I must admit, I have not taken a close look at negative save modifiers in 4e yet. At my current knowledge level, I would expect to start running into -2 at Paragon and -4 at Epic, but that might be more 3e than 4e. Maybe I’ll shake loose some time to look at this.

Done for now.

 

[pukunui]

Judging from what Mearls said in that paraphrased interview posted recently, it sounds like the minotaur may get an official expanded write-up at some point. Just throwing that out there ...