New Race for Review - Minotaur (civilized)

Read and enjoyed the write-up.

Side Comment on Natural Weapons:
They are briefly mentioned in the PH material on the Unarmed Weapon Group (p216), but all the support material (such as a definition in the Glossary) is absent. Currently they seem to be in limbo until WotC either cleans up the scraps or provides enough material to play with.
The gore attack needs to stay. The creature has it in the current MM and attacks with it; you can't very well take it away from players without putting a major hit on their "suspension of disbelief". You can control it, maybe build a few feats around it. If you take it out, you lose something important from the core concept.
In earlier editions "natural weapons" was the term used to define that the penalties associated with human unarmed attacks were not applied to the monsters with significant claw, horn, teeth, tongue, tail, etc. attacks. In other words, since "unarmed" attacks had significant game penalties, the term "natural weapons" was used to designate attacks by monsters that were not subject to "unarmed" penalties.
Personally I have difficulty envisioning how something with natural weapons is "unarmed" or how teeth, horns, and claws can be considered "improvised weapons" when they are what all the natural/bestial monsters attack with, but your mileage may vary.
"Natural weapons" is proving as elusive as "Stance" in these books.

"The gore attack needs to stay. The creature has it in the current MM and attacks with it; you can't very well take it away from players without putting a major hit on their "suspension of disbelief". "

No, actually, the Minotaur as a playable race in the back of the MM DOES NOT have a natrual attack (gore). As for the Suspension of Disbelief: please tell me why the Dragonborn in the MM can get wings but I, as a PC, cannot have a Dragonborn with wings (even at level 30)?
The answer is simple: Monsters and PC fucntion under different rules. Monsters get "Natural Attacks" and "Natural Flight"; PCs don't.

The rest of your arguement is valid....to a point. I still believe that the fact of the matter is this: Natural Armour and Natural Attacks DNE (DO NOT EXIST) for PCs in 4e.



From Khaalis:
"The current version of the race still includes a basic Gore attack, treating it as a melee basic “weapon attack”. They are also retaining the Goring Charge power."

Again, read your MM (pg 278). I do not see a Natrual Attack for the Minotaur (Gore) in the entry.


From Eldritch_Lord
"3) Crunch over Fluff. Powers are balanced on the assumption that a level X power can have Y effect, whether it's a magical blast, sword swing, fist to the face, or something else. The Power Description section actually states this time around "The given flavor is optional, change it if you wish." Thus, as long as a natural weapon has equivalent advantages and disadvantages to a regular weapon, it's basically a regular weapon, and thus nothing new."

The Crunch is that the Minotaur is now always armed with a Short Sword (well, almost a short sword; the proficiency bonus is 1 less). You can't take it away from him without clipping his horns (and if your Minotaur was in one of my campaigns and got arrested or imprisioned for any reason, that's exactly what would happen) and since he can use powers with his horns, there is no way to disarm him. Sure, a Dragonborn can use a 1d6 breathweapon 1/5mins, but a Minotaur is now the best hand-to-hand martial 'fighter' there is. No other race stands a chance agaisnt a Minotaur if both races are 'unarmed'. Heck, a Halfling has a pretty good chance against a Dragonborn, but a Minotaur will squish both. That definitely is a big advantage and I don't see the equivalent disadvantage to balance it.

Alright, before people start getting mad at me for continuously coming back to this point, let me say this:

If you (Khaalis) are simply trying to make a more robust version of the Minotaur, that is still relatively balanced, to use in a homebrew campaign, then I don't see a problem with your Minotaur as is.

If you (Khaalis) are trying to make a 4e legal PC race, then the Gore attack has to go. Period. I would tell you the same thing if you homebrewed a race with Natural Armour. It may be relatively balanced, but it is not 4e legal (as far as the current rules are concerned)
 

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To Verision
Not to get snipey (and I'm really not trying to be but it will likely come off that way anyway) but technically by your logic, as it comes across to me in reading your post, is that the "Official" Warforged is "illegal" also.

Per the Pre-Release the Warforged gains the following "illegal" entries because they are not in the MM entry:
* +2 Intimidate
* Living Construct
— You can use attached components and embedded components made for warforged.
— Rather than sleep, warforged spend 4 hours refraining from any strenuous activity. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While resting in this low-exertion state, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
* Warforged Mind: +1 Will defense
* The new Warforged Resolve encounter power since it changed.

Also by your logic, ti would seem that the MM entry for the Drow is technically illegal (even though its in the book), since in the PHB it says PC races shouldn't get Darkvision, but the PC option for Drow in the MM specifically gives it. IMHO, that is as it should be. Any true Underdark race should have darkvision, but not races that just prefer the night or that sometimes live in caves/underground (that's low-light).

Again, read your MM (pg 278). I do not see a Natrual Attack for the Minotaur (Gore) in the entry.
Technically I have to argue this. The PC version of the MM minotaur HAS a natural gore attack ... Goring Charge.

1) It is specifically called "Goring"
2) It is an un-keyworded encounter power (No Weapon keyword, which means its natural)
3) It is a Racial power (which means its natural)
4) It deals 1d6 damage -- Not [W] damage, Not 1d4 for standard Unarmed Attack (which indicates a natural weapon that deals more than 1d4)
5) It gets a proficiency bonus as if the gore was a weapon (which means its a weapon - thus a natural weapon)

This is the same "Goring Charge" attack as a standard MM minotaur. It has just been reduced from an At-Will to an Encounter power in the same way a Half-Elf gets an At-Will as an Encounter power. This makes sense since it involves a Charge action and improves damage over levels and is thus a special ability. However, its still clear to me that its a natural weapon being used.

With that said, to be fair, "technically" removing the Gore Racial Trait and leaving JUST the Racial Power would make sense if you want to warp the suspension of disbelief. If the minotaur can use their gore as a weapon at all (as indicated by Goring Charge), then they should be able to make basic attacks with it as well.

The trade-off is that they don't currently have a way of being enchanted. That alone, if anything, makes the gore Weak since they have no real way of scaling with the rest of the system as you level. Unlike most racial powers which remain useful at all levels, this one does not. As soon as you hit 6th level your gore is already behind the curve by +1 and increases by another +1 drop behind the curve every 5 levels later. I do think this is how it should be however. Even a race with a "natural weapon" should prefer to use a manufactured weapon over their 'natural' weapon in most cases anyway.

The Crunch is that the Minotaur is now always armed with a Short Sword (well, almost a short sword; the proficiency bonus is 1 less). You can't take it away from him without clipping his horns (and if your Minotaur was in one of my campaigns and got arrested or imprisioned for any reason, that's exactly what would happen) and since he can use powers with his horns, there is no way to disarm him. Sure, a Dragonborn can use a 1d6 breathweapon 1/5mins, but a Minotaur is now the best hand-to-hand martial 'fighter' there is. No other race stands a chance agaisnt a Minotaur if both races are 'unarmed'. Heck, a Halfling has a pretty good chance against a Dragonborn, but a Minotaur will squish both. That definitely is a big advantage and I don't see the equivalent disadvantage to balance it.
To quote you: "Again, read your" Player's Handbook (p56).

Your argument here is mostly moot. ALL PC races are ALWAYS armed in 4E.

Specific Reference: PHB p56

"Weapon: Many martial powers, as well as several divine powers, can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon. (You can use an unarmed attack as your weapon.) A weapon’s reach or range determines the reach or range of a power it’s used with."​


The only difference between a PC punching you in the face or kneeing you in the groin for 1d4 damage and a PC stabbing you with a dagger for 1d4 damage is that a dagger grants a proficiency bonus (if you are proficient). This is the same basic mechanic that people have been giving to the various Monk classes ... "+2 proficiency bonus with the Unarmed weapon group". With the Minotaur it makes perfect sense (to me at least) that a pair of large pointy horns are going to hurt more than a fist or knee or kick and thus should do slightly more damage (1d6 vs. 1d4).

Edit: And this would then support the fact that a TWF ranger can use an unarmed attack as one of their weapons.

The other difference is that you can buy an enchanted dagger and not an enchanted body part - unless of course you are a Warforged.

EDIT: Oh, and the other thing that is different is that there are no powers that specifically key off the "unarmed" weapon group like their are light blades, polearms, etc. So this is yet another factor that shows a weakness in the "natural weapon" over a standard weapon.

Additionally, there is no such thing as being Disarmed in core 4E so this is a moot argument as well.


In the end, the only "advantage" the Minotaur has is that they gain a proficiency bonus to their gore attack and an average of +1 damage with it. In fact, the more I think about it, the way it was suggested earlier may simply work better.

Gore: Your unarmed attacks gain a +2 racial bonus to attack and deal 1d6 damage.
 
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The Crunch is that the Minotaur is now always armed with a Short Sword (well, almost a short sword; the proficiency bonus is 1 less). You can't take it away from him without clipping his horns (and if your Minotaur was in one of my campaigns and got arrested or imprisioned for any reason, that's exactly what would happen) and since he can use powers with his horns, there is no way to disarm him. Sure, a Dragonborn can use a 1d6 breathweapon 1/5mins, but a Minotaur is now the best hand-to-hand martial 'fighter' there is. No other race stands a chance agaisnt a Minotaur if both races are 'unarmed'. Heck, a Halfling has a pretty good chance against a Dragonborn, but a Minotaur will squish both. That definitely is a big advantage and I don't see the equivalent disadvantage to balance it.

Emphasis mine. Like I said, it's only an issue if you're the type of DM who really really really likes to disarm PCs and/or sunder their weapons.

When is the only situation having a natural weapon will come up? When you, the DM, decide that you want them to be helpless and imprisoned with weapons taken away. Under that situation, yes, 1d6 at +2 will be better than 1d4 at +0. However, when they get their weapons back, the halfling can grab a +X short sword with 1d6 at +3 or +4 and the minotaur will still just have his horns...unless he, too, grabs a weapon, in which case it's immaterial.

And that completely leaves out the issue of other races' powers. So what if the minotaur has a natural weapon? The eladrin can teleport out and the dragonborn can breathe his breath weapon. If you're going to restrict the eladrin's teleport by blocking off all LoE and restrict the dragonborn's breath weapon...somehow...you can easily have the minotaur's neck shackled to a cell wall (for example) so he can't use his horns. And class powers. How do you stop a fighter from using cleave? Tie him up. How do you stop a wizard from using magic missile? Mage shackles or the like.

If you insist that every race must be able to be made completely helpless, because you can't deal with a situation where one race is superior at something when that situation comes up <1% of the time, there are ways to do it for everything, even natural weapons.
 

Maybe it's all in the presentation?

First, I'm glade you're not getting snipey. I like civil arguements, even when I completely disagree with the person I'm arguring with. (In other words, no offense taken and no offense meant). Alright, let's get down to it:

To Verision
Not to get snipey (and I'm really not trying to be but it will likely come off that way anyway) but technically by your logic, as it comes across to me in reading your post, is that the "Official" Warforged is "illegal" also.

Per the Pre-Release the Warforged gains the following "illegal" entries because they are not in the MM entry:
* +2 Intimidate
* Living Construct
— You can use attached components and embedded components made for warforged.
— Rather than sleep, warforged spend 4 hours refraining from any strenuous activity. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While resting in this low-exertion state, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
* Warforged Mind: +1 Will defense
* The new Warforged Resolve encounter power since it changed.

By "illegal" I mean that the concept you are working with has been intentionally removed from this edition (there are only two times when the words "Natural Attack" appear in the Player's Handbook; they are both under "Unarmed Attacks"), not that what you're writing is not in the MM. I am contending that Natural Armour and Natural Attacks have been intentionally removed from the game.

Also by your logic, ti would seem that the MM entry for the Drow is technically illegal (even though its in the book), since in the PHB it says PC races shouldn't get Darkvision, but the PC option for Drow in the MM specifically gives it. IMHO, that is as it should be. Any true Underdark race should have darkvision, but not races that just prefer the night or that sometimes live in caves/underground (that's low-light).

Again, I think you mistook my meaning when I said illegal. If Darkvision had been completely removed from 4e and you homebrewed a Drow race with Darkvision, then I would say it's not 4e legal. But, since Darkvision is still part of 4e, homebrewing a race with Darkvision is not illegal.

Technically I have to argue this. The PC version of the MM minotaur HAS a natural gore attack ... Goring Charge.

1) It is specifically called "Goring"
2) It is an un-keyworded encounter power (No Weapon keyword, which means its natural)
3) It is a Racial power (which means its natural)
4) It deals 1d6 damage -- Not [W] damage, Not 1d4 for standard Unarmed Attack (which indicates a natural weapon that deals more than 1d4)
5) It gets a proficiency bonus as if the gore was a weapon (which means its a weapon - thus a natural weapon)

This is the same "Goring Charge" attack as a standard MM minotaur. It has just been reduced from an At-Will to an Encounter power in the same way a Half-Elf gets an At-Will as an Encounter power. This makes sense since it involves a Charge action and improves damage over levels and is thus a special ability. However, its still clear to me that its a natural weapon being used.

A natual weapon is being used, but in the same way that the Dragonborn's breath weapon is a "natual weapon". You will notice that the Dragonborn cannot make a claw attack or a bite attack, even though every "humanoid dragon" race in 3.X had an actual Natural Weapon.

In other words, I see these as being two completely seperate ideas. An encounter power that uses something natual to the race (Goring Charge and Dragon Breath) vs an at-will Natural Weapon that cannot be removed from the race.

With that said, to be fair, "technically" removing the Gore Racial Trait and leaving JUST the Racial Power would make sense if you want to warp the suspension of disbelief. If the minotaur can use their gore as a weapon at all (as indicated by Goring Charge), then they should be able to make basic attacks with it as well.

Again, I point you to the fact that a PC Dragonborn cannot get wings and the Dragonborn in the MM can.
Please don't make "Suspension of Disbelief" arguements about D&D mechanics. They just don't make sense. Dragonborn have large, powerful jaws and long, sharp teeth, and yet their "bite" (I.E. unarmed attack) only does 1d4 with no proficiency bonus (exactly the same as a halfling punching you in the mouth). If that does not "warp your suspension of disbelief", then why does the Minotaur goring you for the same damage "warp your suspension of disbelief"?

If your Minotaur hits someone with his horns, then it's just an unarmed attack in the same way that a Dragonborn biting someone is just a normal unarmed attack.
The only reason you think it warps the "Suspension of Disbelief" is that you have read the rules in the MM and you know the mechanic behind the attack and you know that if the PC does it it's not the exact same mechanic. Suspension of Disbelief should not include the mechanic (which is something that cannot be accessed from within the game) but should only include the Fluff (I.E. the way the characters in the game would view it. To a person in the game, a minotaur hitting someone with his horns doesn't change between a PC and a Monster; they can't see what die you're rolling or what modifiers you're adding)

The trade-off is that they don't currently have a way of being enchanted. That alone, if anything, makes the gore Weak since they have no real way of scaling with the rest of the system as you level. Unlike most racial powers which remain useful at all levels, this one does not. As soon as you hit 6th level your gore is already behind the curve by +1 and increases by another +1 drop behind the curve every 5 levels later. I do think this is how it should be however. Even a race with a "natural weapon" should prefer to use a manufactured weapon over their 'natural' weapon in most cases anyway.

I've already stated that as far as the question "Does the Gore attack REALLY make that much difference, over the course of 30 levels, as far as power balancing" is concerned, my answer is NO. That doesn't mean you aren't using a concept that was intentionally left out of 4e.

To quote you: "Again, read your" Player's Handbook (p56).

Your argument here is mostly moot. ALL PC races are ALWAYS armed in 4E.

Specific Reference: PHB p56
"Weapon: Many martial powers, as well as several divine powers, can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon. (You can use an unarmed attack as your weapon.) A weapon’s reach or range determines the reach or range of a power it’s used with."
The only difference between a PC punching you in the face or kneeing you in the groin for 1d4 damage and a PC stabbing you with a dagger for 1d4 damage is that a dagger grants a proficiency bonus (if you are proficient). This is the same basic mechanic that people have been giving to the various Monk classes ... "+2 proficiency bonus with the Unarmed weapon group". With the Minotaur it makes perfect sense (to me at least) that a pair of large pointy horns are going to hurt more than a fist or knee or kick and thus should do slightly more damage (1d6 vs. 1d4).

The other difference is that you can buy an enchanted dagger and not an enchanted body part - unless of course you are a Warforged.

Again, you are arguing balance, I'm arguing leaglity. I've already stated my position on balance, can we please talk about legality? (I.E. whether or not the concepts you are using are part of 4e)

Additionally, there is no such thing as being Disarmed in core 4E so this is a moot argument as well.

There is no such thing as a combat menuver called Disarm (I.E. like Bullrush or Charge). That doesn't mean someone can't knock you out and take your weapons (I.E. Disarming you).

In the end, the only "advantage" the Minotaur has is that they gain a proficiency bonus to their gore attack and an average of +1 damage with it. In fact, the more I think about it, the way it was suggested earlier may simply work better.

Gore: Your unarmed attacks gain a +2 racial bonus to attack and deal 1d6 damage.

Now, this sounds (emphasis on 'sounds') more 4e legal. If you just made racial feats for this, then I wouldn't have an arguement (I.E. Feat 1: Must be minotaur; Gain +2 to unarmed attack rolls. Feat 2: Must be minotaur; Your unarmed attacks deal 1d6 dmg. Heck, you could make it just one feat that does both, if you really wanted to), but I still think having a Natrual Attack/Weapon as a base ability for a PC race is "illegal".


I'm starting to think that we might have to "agree to disagree" on this one.
 

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Sorry for the double-post, but Eldritch_Lord posted while I was writing my first post and I wanted to address his post.

Emphasis mine. Like I said, it's only an issue if you're the type of DM who really really really likes to disarm PCs and/or sunder their weapons.

When is the only situation having a natural weapon will come up? When you, the DM, decide that you want them to be helpless and imprisoned with weapons taken away. Under that situation, yes, 1d6 at +2 will be better than 1d4 at +0. However, when they get their weapons back, the halfling can grab a +X short sword with 1d6 at +3 or +4 and the minotaur will still just have his horns...unless he, too, grabs a weapon, in which case it's immaterial.

And that completely leaves out the issue of other races' powers. So what if the minotaur has a natural weapon? The eladrin can teleport out and the dragonborn can breathe his breath weapon. If you're going to restrict the eladrin's teleport by blocking off all LoE and restrict the dragonborn's breath weapon...somehow...you can easily have the minotaur's neck shackled to a cell wall (for example) so he can't use his horns. And class powers. How do you stop a fighter from using cleave? Tie him up. How do you stop a wizard from using magic missile? Mage shackles or the like.

If you insist that every race must be able to be made completely helpless, because you can't deal with a situation where one race is superior at something when that situation comes up <1% of the time, there are ways to do it for everything, even natural weapons.


Like I said, as far as balance is concerned, I really don't see it being THAT much of an issue (for the reasons you have stated, among others).
It's more of a "the designers took this out of the game; therefore you shouldn't put it back in without taking a good long look at how it effects the game" arguement that I am making.


Can someone please tell me whether or not I am crazy here? I.E. Whether you agree with me or not, can you at least see where I am coming from with this arguement? Or do you see my arguement as being completely out to lunch?
If you think I'm completely out to lunch, then I'll stop making this arguement and let you carry on your merry way (I don't want to completely derail the rest of the conversations that have been going on with your homebrew if you think my arguement is baseless).
 
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Like I said, as far as balance is concerned, I really don't see it being THAT much of an issue (for the reasons you have stated, among others).
It's more of a "the designers took this out of the game; therefore you shouldn't put it back in without taking a good long look at how it effects the game" arguement that I am making.


Can someone please tell me whether or not I am crazy here? I.E. Whether you agree with me or not, can you at least see where I am coming from with this arguement? Or do you see my arguement as being completely out to lunch?
If you think I'm completely out to lunch, then I'll stop making this arguement and let you carry on your merry way (I don't want to completely derail the rest of the conversations that have been going on with your homebrew if you think my arguement is baseless).

I can see where you're coming from; I just disagree and am trying to change your mind.

I agree that one shouldn't add new elements to the game without thoroughly thinking them through. Where you and I differ is that I believe that we have thought them through--we've determined that adding natural attacks/armor (1) fits with the 4e design philosophy, (2) would be balanced with the other available options, and (3) minimally effects the game. I believe that's all we need to do, and having done that, we can add back natural attacks/armor.

Your stance is (as I understand it; correct me if I'm wrong) that (A) we should wait until it's either in the game or a dev gives their opinion on it before adding it, and, failing that, (B) we shouldn't make it an isolated example, like this single race getting it. To that, I say that (A) it's exceptions-based design, so whether it's in the game or not shouldn't matter after we've completed our analysis (1 through 3 above) and (B) its isolation is what makes it unique, as for instance eladrin wouldn't be nearly as interesting if 3 or 4 races could naturally teleport.

You shouldn't give up on a valid point only because we disagree, but I think you're being too cautious with your design instincts because 4e is new and that you can broaden your horizons a bit.
 
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All my base.

Eldritch_Lord - "I can see where you're coming from; I just disagree and am trying to change your mind."

Well that's good. I was starting to think you all thought I was coming out of left field with this arguement.

Eldritch_Lord - "I agree that one shouldn't add new elements to the game without thoroughly thinking them through. Where you and I differ is that I believe that we have thought them through--we've determined that adding natural attacks/armor (1) fits with the 4e design philosophy, (2) would be balanced with the other available options, and (3) minimally effects the game. I believe that's all we need to do, and having done that, we can add back natural attacks/armor."

Alright, as long as you are saying "We have thought this through and we believe that it only minimally effects the game" and you are not saying "It's a freaking Minotaur. They have great honking HORNS! Of couse they do MORE DAMAGE!!!!!" then fine; I can let that part of the arguement go.


Eldritch_Lord - "Your stance is (as I understand it; correct me if I'm wrong) that (A) we should wait until it's either in the game or a dev gives their opinion on it before adding it"

My stance is that natural armour/attacks for PC playable races have been intentionaly removed from this edition of D&D. Whether or not I am right can be debated (To my knowledge, none of the rulebooks say "Note to players of the old editions: Natural Armour/Attacks have been removed etc etc"), but if I am right then giving a homebrewed race natural armour/attacks is a no-no regardless of how little it seems to effect the game; at least if you want the homebrew to be an "edition legal" homebrew, and not just a homebrew you're droping in your own personal game for kicks-and-giggles.

Eldritch_Lord - "(B) we shouldn't make it an isolated example, like this single race getting it. To that, I say that (A) it's exceptions-based design, so whether it's in the game or not shouldn't matter after we've completed our analysis (1 through 3 above) and (B) its isolation is what makes it unique, as for instance eladrin wouldn't be nearly as interesting if 3 or 4 races could naturally teleport."

Alright. Hold on a second here. Are you really suggesting that the Minotaur will be the only race with a Natural Attack? "It's isolation is what makes it unique"? No other race will have a natural attack and that is what will make the Minotaur a unique PC race?
I ask because the problem I'm seeing is that every second homebrewed race has a natural attack (werewolf/lycanthopes, lizardfolk and other "draconic-humaniod-races-that-aren't-dragonborn", etc, etc). I can hardly see any way to make a case that the Minotaur should be the one and only race to get a natural attack.
If that is what you are saying, and you can come up with even a semi-plausible reason for the Minotaur to be the only race with a natural attack, then I'll conceed all my points and all my base will belong to you. I'm serious.


Also, on the topic of abilities that are unique to a race and thus make the race more interesting: What does giving the Minotaur a Natural Attack really do?
Does it make the Minotaur unique and interesting? (I would say definitely not)
Does it give the Minotaur an ability it would not otherwise have? (My answer is no: a natural attack is simply an unarmed attack in 4e. Crunchwise it doesn't matter if its the halfling punching you in the chops, the dragonborn biting your neck, or the minotaur goring you midsection: it's all an unarmed attack that does 1d4 dmg. It's not like the minotaur can't gore you just because it doesn't have an ability called "Gore")
Does it help balance out the Minotaur? (again, no)
Is is needed for the "suspension of disbelief"? (not unless your disbelief revolves solely around what dice you roll for what).


Eldritch_Lord - "You shouldn't give up on a valid point only because we disagree, but I think you're being too cautious with your design instincts because 4e is new and that you can broaden your horizons a bit."

I wouldn't have been giving up on the point, I would just be giving up on trying to convince you (and others who have posted in this thread). I.E. I still wouldn't allow a homebrewed race with a natural attack into my campaign even if you all thought I was crazy.

As to being overly cautious and broadening my horizons...Well, I've played in a couple games where people where "play testing" homebrewed races with somewhat...unique...abilities (I'm talking 3.x here). Both times it turned out horribly, as far as I'm concerned (the people who played the characters would argue that fiercly, but that's beside the point). Both times the homebrews were overpowered and made the rest of us look like, well, like pre-TOB fighters compared to Clerics/Durids/Wizards. The campaigns were absolutely no fun because of this.
It has also been my experience that 99.9% of homebrews lean more towards the overpowered part of the spectrum and only 0.01% lean towards the underpowered portion of the spectrum. That makes me cautious.
 

I really like what you have done with the Minotaur but i feel it overpowered as written. Proficiency with Battle Axes and Great Axes, Goring Charge, and Oversized, on top of this you are giving them a increased die type and +2 proficiency bonus with unarmed attacks I would make this a feat instead maybe paragon tier.
 

Assuming the following feats... what level would you place it at? I am thinking Heroic.

GORE PROFICIENCY
Prerequisite: Minotaur
Benefit: You gain proficiency in goring with your horns as a weapon. Treat your unarmed attacks as having a +2 proficiency bonus.

GORE FOCUS
Prerequisite: Minotaur, Gore Proficiency
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your unarmed attacks. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.
 

Assuming the following feats... what level would you place it at? I am thinking Heroic.

GORE PROFICIENCY
Prerequisite: Minotaur
Benefit: You gain proficiency in goring with your horns as a weapon. Treat your unarmed attacks as having a +2 proficiency bonus.

GORE FOCUS
Prerequisite: Minotaur, Gore Proficiency
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your unarmed attacks. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.


I don't see any problem making these Heroic teir feats. "Dwarven Weapon Training" gives proficiency with axes and hammers and a +2 to damage, and it's a heroic feat.
 

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