New Rogue and Warlord Build Options

[Duelpersonality]

With the initial offering of the Compendium we got a look at potential new build options in Martial Power: two for the rogue (ruthless thug and thief-acrobat) and two for the warlord (bravura warlord and resourceful warlord). Any speculation on these as far as how they'll pan out?

Begin Guesswork:

Ruthless thug has some information already up in the Compendium, indicating that the primary stat for the build will be Charisma. Also, Rogue Weapon Talent would be replaced by Thug Weapon Talent. Thug weapon talent sounds very interesting to me, as it would likely take the focus off of daggers for a rogue, but the question is: what weapon would be likely to fill this void? Short sword might be an interesting choice for a higher base damaging rogue, but I'm not sure how well that fits with the Cha based attacking style. Another idea is that Thug weapon talent will grant proficiency in rapiers, which would seem to be a good fit and provide a nice bonus while leaving out the attack bonus of Rogue weapon talent. Any other ideas?

Thief-acrobat doesn't have any info up yet. Still, it would be hard to believe that Dex was not the primary stat for this build. However, that does open up some interesting options by making Wis (or perhaps Int, though I find this far less likely) the secondary stat for the build, thus making it very different from other rogue builds. Perhaps no weapon talent at all with this build, but a Thief Skill Talent? Or perhaps a weapn talent to make slings the most attractive option to this build?

Bravura warlords interest me greatly. For those who aren't familiar with the term, it is usally used to descibe a piece of music. Yes, music. I am almost certain that this is not a complete bard replacement, but perhaps a substitute without the "otherworldly patron" mentioned in Races & Classes. Maybe a Cha primary warlord build, with Str or Int secondary? Could there be an addition of Implement powers to the warlord (instrument)?

Resourceful warlords have a basic description up, pointing out that Str will still be the primary stat, and that both Int and Cha will be equally important secondary stats. The description of Resourceful Presence would seem to indicate that Int will be used to increase party attack effectiveness and Cha will be used to increase the warlord's healing effectiveness. The description also points out that shields will be important to resourceful warlords. Perhaps some paladin-esque defending mixed in?

Anyway, thoughts?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Thug weapon talent sounds very interesting to me, as it would likely take the focus off of daggers for a rogue, but the question is: what weapon would be likely to fill this void?

Might be something like a club or sap - just going on the name 'thug.'

Bravura warlords interest me greatly. For those who aren't familiar with the term, it is usally used to descibe a piece of music.

It's also used to describe an act of courage or daring-do. I'm guessing that's the more likely usage. So, a more Erol Flynn take on the class.

The description of Resourceful Presence would seem to indicate that Int will be used to increase party attack effectiveness and Cha will be used to increase the warlord's healing effectiveness.

Considering that's about what Tactical Presence and Inspiring Presence already do, both functions would have to be nerfed (and Tactical Presence already borders on the trivial) to keep all three builds competative.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Might be something like a club or sap - just going on the name 'thug.'

Could be, but I was going more off of the "Charismatic backstabber" description. Still, maces or a resurgence of the sap might be a good choice.

It's also used to describe an act of courage or daring-do. I'm guessing that's the more likely usage. So, a more Erol Flynn take on the class.

Good point. Dex based?

Considering that's about what Tactical Presence and Inspiring Presence already do, both functions would have to be nerfed (and Tactical Presence already borders on the trivial) to keep all three builds competative.

I was trying to pinpoint exactly what the powers directly associated with this build might do. Resourceful Presence itself only comes into play when an ally spends an action point and uses the extra action to make an attack (damage bonus of warlord's Int +1/2 level if the attack deals damage, temporary hit points equal to warlord's Cha +1/2 level if the attack doesn't deal damage). I wonder if some of the powers tied to this build will have the same kind of hit/miss dichotomy.

 

[Bumamgar]

Where are you finding this information in the compendium?

So far I see only whats in the PHB. It doesn't even have the feats/powers from Dragon yet, which I believe it is supposed to eventually.

 

[Kordeth]

Where are you finding this information in the compendium?

So far I see only whats in the PHB. It doesn't even have the feats/powers from Dragon yet, which I believe it is supposed to eventually.

Search for "warlord" and "rogue," pull up the class entries for each, and you'll see build options that aren't in the PHB.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Could be, but I was going more off of the "Charismatic backstabber" description.

Yeah, you did say charisma was prime. Odd choice for a 'thug' - or odd choice of name.

Good point. Dex based?

Yeah, I'd guess a STR/DEX/CHA take on the Warlord instead of the current STR/INT/CHA.

Resourceful Presence itself only comes into play when an ally spends an action point and uses the extra action to make an attack (damage bonus of warlord's Int +1/2 level if the attack deals damage, temporary hit points equal to warlord's Cha +1/2 level if the attack doesn't deal damage).

So it's as good as Inpiring Presence, or better than Tactical Assault - but only one or the other, based on the nature or success of the attack?

Wow, that didn't take long.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Where are you finding this information in the compendium?

So far I see only whats in the PHB. It doesn't even have the feats/powers from Dragon yet, which I believe it is supposed to eventually.

When you launch the Compendium, search for "rogue" and "warlord." Then click on the "Classes" tab, then the name of the class displayed to get to the full description. The PHB stuff is there as well as the new build option stuff.

 

[Kordeth]

So it's as good as Inpiring Presence, or better than Tactical Assault - but only one or the other, based on the nature or success of the attack?

Wow, that didn't take long.

Hardly--it's temp hp, where Inspiring Presence is real, actual healing, and it's a damage bonus, not an attack bonus. Attack bonuses are far more valuable in 4E than damage bonuses.

 

[Mengu]

So it's as good as Inpiring Presence, or better than Tactical Assault - but only one or the other, based on the nature or success of the attack?

Wow, that didn't take long.

Except you can neither dump charisma, nor intelligence stat, and your primary is strength, so you'll be a bit MAD.

 

[Duelpersonality]

So it's as good as Inpiring Presence, or better than Tactical Assault - but only one or the other, based on the nature or success of the attack?

Wow, that didn't take long.

Not really. Inspiring Presence provides real, permanant healing, where Resourceful Presence only gives temporary hit points. Also, the usefullness of Tactical Presence is quite good as far as I can tell: it provides a little extra insurance that the attack an ally spent an action point to gain will hit (as it's a bonus to the attack roll; Resourceful Presence only provides a damage bonus, albeit a good one).

I don't think it's neccessarily about the nature of the attack, but whether the attack hits or misses in most cases (though attacks that don't deal damage on a hit will always get the temporary hit points).