New SCAG Info: Someone Got The Book

psychophipps · Oct 30, 2015

Now, now Eric V...you aren't supposed to counter a "Meh! I think it's actually kinda weak..." response about a broken new character option with logic. It's against the rules of internet decorum and stuff.

Tia Nadiezja · Oct 30, 2015

psychophipps said:
One aspect to keep in mind is that one of the greatest dangers for a wizard is for the front line to collapse, forcing the Mage (Wizards and Sorcerers both suffer here) into melee combat. Low AC, low hit points, and opportunity attacks while casting don't exactly do you any favors in this regard.

With the above in mind, pretty much any player with even a smidgen of tactical acumen will realize that with a Bladesinger you hang back and cast just like a regular Mage. If things go south you then crank up the Trance and go to work with Improved Movement to disengage, double attack and ridiculous AC when you get stuck brawling, and improved Concentration saves if you need to risk casting in direct melee combat to support a teammate or get a particularly stubborn foe off of you.

Not a whole lot of direct negatives and whole lot of "It's like a Wizard, but without the negative parts!", IMO.

An evoker can cast the game's best damaging spells and deal extra damage without fear of harming allies.
An abjurer can basically shut enemy spellcasters down completely with Counterspell - their bonus to their check will just overwhelm their enemy's.
A conjurer can keep their summoned creatures in play whenever they aren't at 0 HP.
A diviner can force failed or successful saves on targets, and can regenerate slots by casting spells.
An enchanter can double the effectiveness of some of the best removal and control spells in the game - taking out two enemies with one instance of concentration.
An illusionist can keep a single slot going on an illusion while creating a variety of effects.
A necromancer can keep low-tier skeletons and zombies useful into the high levels.
A transmuter can gain a list of extra effects, and bypass exploration encounters without using a spell slot on Polymorph.

What you're missing here is that opportunity costs are a thing. Yes, the bladesinger is able to stand up in a melee - and, in fact, to shine there given the right choice of spells - but they're distinctly inferior at wizarding to the other wizard subclasses.

psychophipps · Oct 30, 2015

Tia Nadiezja said:
An evoker can cast the game's best damaging spells and deal extra damage without fear of harming allies.
An abjurer can basically shut enemy spellcasters down completely with Counterspell - their bonus to their check will just overwhelm their enemy's.
A conjurer can keep their summoned creatures in play whenever they aren't at 0 HP.
A diviner can force failed or successful saves on targets, and can regenerate slots by casting spells.
An enchanter can double the effectiveness of some of the best removal and control spells in the game - taking out two enemies with one instance of concentration.
An illusionist can keep a single slot going on an illusion while creating a variety of effects.
A necromancer can keep low-tier skeletons and zombies useful into the high levels.
A transmuter can gain a list of extra effects, and bypass exploration encounters without using a spell slot on Polymorph.

What you're missing here is that opportunity costs are a thing. Yes, the bladesinger is able to stand up in a melee - and, in fact, to shine there given the right choice of spells - but they're distinctly inferior at wizarding to the other wizard subclasses.

Good point.

But you know, with the removal of basically every strong negative to being a Wizard (and every Wizard you mentioned above suffers as I discussed above), the Bladesinger really shines. You see, I'm an Old Skool D&D player and I honestly had no clue that half the stuff you mentioned above even existed. And when I'm looking at three Multi-Attack, Pack Tactics baddies at bad breath range (which happened a lot in the Tiamat campaign) I probably won't give a dang. But I certainly will care that my AC is 19+, that I can move +10ft to get away if I have to use my action to Dash to make room or simply scream and run, I can attack twice later if necessary, and that my Concentration checks are done at a probable minimum of +3 if I really have to cast something at point-blank range.

I, for one, would gladly trade each thing you mentioned above for the stuff I just mentioned for both character survivablity and general Death Machine (tm) utility for most parties.

Tia Nadiezja · Oct 30, 2015

psychophipps said:
Good point.

But you know, with the removal of basically every strong negative to being a Wizard (and every Wizard you mentioned above suffers as I discussed above), the Bladesinger really shines. You see, I'm an Old Skool D&D player and I honestly had no clue that half the stuff you mentioned above even existed. And when I'm looking at three Multi-Attack, Pack Tactics baddies at bad breath range (which happened a lot in the Tiamat campaign) I probably won't give a dang. But I certainly will care that my AC is 19+, that I can move +10ft to get away if I have to use my action to Dash to make room or simply scream and run, I can attack twice later if necessary, and that my Concentration checks are done at a probable minimum of +3 if I really have to cast something at point-blank range.

I, for one, would gladly trade each thing you mentioned above for the stuff I just mentioned for both character survivablity and general Death Machine (tm) utility for most parties.

I'm currently planning a Bladesinger, and currently playing an Abjurer.

I fully expect my Abjurer will turn out to have been by far the more powerful of the two. Improved Abjuration and the abjurer's Ward ability are incredible features, which I expect to completely outshine my new Bladesinger's abilities. I'm building a Bladesinger because I love them and have since the days of 2e.

Oh, and if you need to get away from the baddies? Misty Step is a level 2 spell that casts as a bonus action and teleports you 20 feet, leaving you free to both move and cast a cantrip. Shield is +5 AC as a reaction for the rest of the round, boosting your momentary AC for that round from 16-ish (+2 Dex - Dex is pretty much always the second-best ability score for wizards) to 21-ish and, if you're an Abjurer, restoring your ward.

psychophipps · Oct 30, 2015

Tia Nadiezja said:
I'm currently planning a Bladesinger, and currently playing an Abjurer.

I fully expect my Abjurer will turn out to have been by far the more powerful of the two. Improved Abjuration and the abjurer's Ward ability are incredible features, which I expect to completely outshine my new Bladesinger's abilities. I'm building a Bladesinger because I love them and have since the days of 2e.

Oh, and if you need to get away from the baddies? Misty Step is a level 2 spell that casts as a bonus action and teleports you 20 feet, leaving you free to both move and cast a cantrip. Shield is +5 AC as a reaction for the rest of the round, boosting your momentary AC for that round from 16-ish (+2 Dex - Dex is pretty much always the second-best ability score for wizards) to 21-ish and, if you're an Abjurer, restoring your ward.

All of which a Bladesinger will likely also have.

I'm currently looking at a character in my group with a Trance AC of 21 (26 with Shield...higher than Tiamat!) and everything you just mentioned above...at 3rd level and zero magic items.

My Tiamat campaign paladin had a 26 AC with Dwarven Plate +2, and Shield of Spell Deflection (or whatever it's called) +1, Haste, and Shield of Faith.

Level 3 Wizard...Level 17 Paladin with epic-level magic items... *tetters outstretched hands and tilts towards the Wizard*

Devilbass · Oct 30, 2015

All wizards can cast at point blank range without fear of opportunity attacks. All casters for that matter. In 5e the only thing that triggers an OA is leaving an enemy's reach (at least by default). The bladesinger's bonus to concentration checks is helpful for all wizards, but especially helpful for those who are melee-focused. Also, of wizard subclasses, bladesingers do not have a monopoly on such a benefit; transmuters can gain proficiency in CON saves with their philosopher's stone.

Also, the bonus to AC is being over-valued, as it is not always on, and is more than necessary to supplement a wizard's piddly HP. And factoring the Shield spell is mostly inconsequential, as it is available to all wizards - the only relevant factors are light armor proficiency and Int bonus. And really, the armor proficiency effectly only saves a single level 1 spell slot, rather than increasing AC (unless you gain access to magic armor in which case it does both). The saving of this spell slot is probably the only way that shield is relevant to the discussion because it means that bladesingers could get one more use of it compared to a wizard who is mage armoured.

Bonus speed (10 ft) is nice, but not significant enough to cause any kind of imbalance, plenty of monsters have higher speeds, ranged weapons, proning attacks, and grapples; if enemies are determined to limit your mobility, or put the hurt on you, 10 ft of extra movement may not save you.

It looks to me like the bladesinger is designed to be a melee wizard, especially with the new cantrips. Now, you're right that the subclass somewhat undoes a number of the wizard's classic weaknesses, but in order for it to be a melee wizard, it has to. And maybe the idea of paying a bladesinger who doesn't do melee is appealing to you, but then you're playing a wizard who isn't as good at magic. The subclass features of the other subclasses are potent and probably worth more to the typical wizard than a higher armor class. I mean, if defence is a big concern, the abjure had that covered nicely - better than the bladesinger even, as it's defensive capabilities are tailored to cope with physical and magical assault. Having superior counter spell and dispel magic capabilities is a powerful advantage as is spell resistance. I don't think the bladesinger measures up to this.

That's not even to mention the potent abilities of other subclasses. I think if you look closely at all the wizard subclasses, you'll find that the bladesinger only really tops then as a melee wizard, and not as a wizard in general.

Sword of Spirit · Oct 30, 2015

I think it's strong, but not quite overpowered.

As far as Extra Attack, that is great. But unless you have a good magic weapon, you won't be using it much. You'll be using greenflame blade (or booming blade) because it's better most of the time. And it's even better for you than for most, because at high enough level you add your Int to weapon damage. Now, by that time you might have a nice magic item and be using Extra Attack for single target attacks and getting your Int bonus on both attacks. The only ones who can get more out of the weapon enhancing cantrips are the valor bard and eldritch knight, who can make two attacks and still use it.

Basically, you are on the high end of the "not designed to excel with weapons" damage tier. You're doing better than an evoker with firebolt, but you aren't competing with anyone packing a d10 HD.

The two weaknesses that I can see are hit points and opportunity cost. Now, as far as hit points go, there is a simple solution: Tough. *BAM!* Fighter equivalent hit points with a single feat. Now you can tank if you want. Of course, anyone can take Tough, so that's not a balance issue. It's just how you would turn into a tank if you wanted to.

Opportunity cost is simple. While you are doing a great job outclassing the people who aren't supposed to be swinging weapons around anyway by providing modest melee support to the real tanks, you aren't supporting the party by casting spells.

What might be a good way to deal with it would be to not focus on combat spells. Just fight in combat, and use your spells for everything that isn't combat. That's a perfectly viable way to do it. You might end up making the worst combat contribution in the whole party if you do that though.

I'm sure there are ways to increase your melee potential significantly, and make your character a welcome presence on the front lines. Wizards don't have a lot of "I do more damage with my weapon attacks" spells, but haste comes to mind. You can pair that with Tough and go frontline it with the others, as long as you have the spell slots, and then be the out of combat utility guy with the rest of them.

I think bladesinger is a really fun concept and a great contribution to the game, but I can't quite do what I want to do with my fighter/mage with it. If it were overpowered I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any problem making it do what I want it to (which isn't actually overpowered, just difficult to squeeze out of the rules).

Mirtek · Oct 30, 2015

psychophipps said:
All of which a Bladesinger will likely also have.

But he won"t have any powerful wizard Tricks, only the standard wizard tricks.

He trades being good in his main job for being good in an emergency happening once in a while

GMforPowergamers · Oct 30, 2015

Mirtek said:
But he won"t have any powerful wizard Tricks, only the standard wizard tricks.

He trades being good in his main job for being good in an emergency happening once in a while

disclaimer: I don't have the book yet

I thought that someone said blaidsingers add extra attack ontop of spells... once you have 4th or 5th level spells those class features are no where near as good... and to be honest 1 6th level spell per day IS the powerful wizard trick in my book

Parmandur · Oct 30, 2015

AC is not as important as HP, and a High Elf using the standard array will be lacking there.

New SCAG Info: Someone Got The Book

psychophipps

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Tia Nadiezja

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psychophipps

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Tia Nadiezja

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psychophipps

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Devilbass

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Sword of Spirit

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Mirtek

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GMforPowergamers

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Parmandur

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