D&D (2024) New stealth rules.

[OB1]

Not in the rules. If hiding was meant to not move then the rules would have said moving breaks or might break it.

I’ve often hid from my wife while walking up behind here.

One other form of ambush is to stay hidden from someone while you follow them until they are where you want to ambush them at.

I’m not saying he cannot. I’m saying it’s not RAI or RAW for him to do so.

Right, I was suggesting a fix to the rules of hiding that adds, "Once hidden, if you use movement, the invisibility condition ends at the end of your current turn."

It is absolutely both RAI and RAW for a DM to ask for a Dexterity (Stealth) check if a player describes trying to sneak past a guard in an exploration sceen, or sneak down an empty hallway without attracting attention. This is from the basic order of play.

You didn't hide up to your wife, you hid and then snuck up to your wife. But this perfectly describes my rule adjustment. You hide from your wife (Make a DC15 Dexterity (Stealth) check. You succeed and she walks by you, not seeing you because she wasn't actively searching and your check beat her passive perception. You then come out of your hidiing spot to move up to her. If you do so before the end of your turn you get advantage on your 'tickle' attack without making another check. If you don't make it to her in 6 seconds, you are no longer Invisible, and would lose your advantage unless you attempt to Hide again.

 

[FrogReaver]

Right, I was suggesting a fix to the rules of hiding that adds, "Once hidden, if you use movement, the invisibility condition ends at the end of your current turn."

Got ya. Didn’t realize that.

It is absolutely both RAI and RAW for a DM to ask for a Dexterity (Stealth) check if a player describes trying to sneak past a guard in an exploration sceen, or sneak down an empty hallway without attracting attention. This is from the basic order of play.

That’s just it, I don’t think it is in 2024.

The way the guard example is supposed to work. You take the hide action and succeed. As you try to sneak past him the passive perception is checked vs the result of your hide (stealth) check. If the guard is actively looking he makes a perception check per the search skill against the stealth check you rolled by hiding as the dc. If the guard succeeds in either case he sees you.

You didn't hide up to your wife, you hid and then snuck up to your wife. But this perfectly describes my rule adjustment.

‘I was hiding from my wife as I approached her while she was distracted’. Perfectly fine grammatically and semantically

You hide from your wife (Make a DC15 Dexterity (Stealth) check. You succeed and she walks by you, not seeing you because she wasn't actively searching and your check beat her passive perception. You then come out of your hidiing spot to move up to her. If you do so before the end of your turn you get advantage on your 'tickle' attack without making another check. If you don't make it to her in 6 seconds, you are no longer Invisible, and would lose your advantage unless you attempt to Hide again.

Are you suggesting this is how it works or is this a fix to the rules?

 

[mellored]

Right, I was suggesting a fix to the rules of hiding that adds, "Once hidden, if you use movement, the invisibility condition ends at the end of your current turn."

So if you move you need to spend an action and reroll?

So..
no hiding and dashing.
And walking further is more likely to be found.
And if your hidden behind a tree, waiting in ambush you can still run out and stab someone with advantage.



I'll have to think about it some more, but that might work.

 

[Xetheral]

The Stealth skill specifically includes moving silently in the description of the skill, and not moving silently makes absolutely no sense the the context of the rest of the situation. There is zero reason to turn this into two stealth checks, one to hide and one to move silently. That is nonsense.

I'm not saying that the 2024 rules require two checks. I'm saying that becoming or remaining unheard (i.e. preventing creatures from locating you by sound) doesn't appear to be supported in the 2024 rules at all.

I agree that it's supposed to be, as indicated by the description of the Stealth skill. But from the general Hiding rules excerpted in the post quoted below, we know that "sneaking past a guardian" is an application of hiding, and that when trying to hide one takes the Hide action. From the text of the Hide action quoted in the OP we know that its benefit is providing the Invisible condition. But from the text of the Invisible condition quoted in the OP we know that it has nothing at all to do with sound--it's concerned only with vision....

How then to resolve the apparent contradiction between what the rules say they are supposed to do, and the lack of mechanics to actually do so? One option is to infer that the Invisible condition makes one unheard, but the thread can't even agree on whether or not the Invisible condition can make one unseen without a separate source of cover or obscurement, so I highly doubt we'd find a consensus on whether the condition instead/additionally makes one unheard. Another option would be to infer that successfully taking the Hide action makes one unheard based on its requirement that one stay quiet, but, as previously explained, it's circular if the requirement to stay quiet in order to maintain the benefits of the Hide action was intended to be met by successfully taking the Hide action. The default ability check mechanics (roll against a DC set by the DM) are tempting, but (as @FrogReaver discusses above) the hiding rules state that attempts to hide are instead resolved via the Hide action. Specific beats general, so it arguably would require a houserule to rely on the default resolution mechanic when another one has been specified for the 2024 rules.

I'm sure many people will use such a houserule--indeed, I've houseruled the 2014 stealth rules to make them work for me. The issue is that becoming or remaining unheard so that enemies can't locate you by sound is such a basic concept that if the 2024 rules indeed do not cover it, that's either a huge oversight if unintentional or a massive change if deliberate.

@DavyGreenwind was kind enough to give us a screen shot of the Hiding rules in the Exploration section.

View attachment 375266

 

[mellored]

I'm not saying that the 2024 rules require two checks. I'm saying that becoming or remaining unheard (i.e. preventing creatures from locating you by sound) doesn't appear to be supported in the 2024 rules at all.

Making a noise louder than a whisper, or casting a spell with verbal component, will cause you to lose the condition.

So yes. The rules support staying quiet.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Making a noise louder than a whisper, or casting a spell with verbal component, will cause you to lose the condition.

So yes. The rules support staying quiet.

But they do not tell us how to determine whether one remains quiet.

 

[mellored]

But they do not tell us how to determine whether one remains quiet.

Determined by if you did something louder than a whisper.

Quiet is the default state of things. You remain quiet by doing nothing. Sound doesn't exsist without energy.

You have to do something to break silence.

And I expect that most people would agree that walking is generally quieter than a whisper.

Though I could certainly see a DM saying that walking on a floor made of bubble wrap is not quieter than a whisper.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Determined by if you did something louder than a whisper.

Quiet is the default state of things. You remain quiet by doing nothing. Sound doesn't exsist without energy.

You have to do something to break silence.

And I expect that most people would agree that walking is generally quieter than a whisper.

Though I could certainly see a DM saying that walking on a floor made of bubble wrap is not quieter than a whisper.

I see. So sneaking around silently is in your opinion just something people can automatically do, no roll required? That certainly would be a novel way to handle it for D&D.

 

[FrogReaver]

Determined by if you did something louder than a whisper.

Quiet is the default state of things. You remain quiet by doing nothing. Sound doesn't exsist without energy.

I agree here.

You have to do something to break silence.

And here.

And I expect that most people would agree that walking is generally quieter than a whisper.

That’s kind of a problem. Is walking generally louder than a whisper? Different DMs will rule differently even in the normal case.

 

[Xetheral]

I see. So sneaking around silently is in your opinion just something people can automatically do, no roll required? That certainly would be a novel way to handle it for D&D.

Indeed. In the 2014 rules being heard (and thus located by sound) was the default for anyone in hearing range and becoming unheard required taking an action. If they intended to change that in the 2024 rules so that being unheard (and not locatable by sound) is the default, they really really really needed to make that change clear and explicit.