New TEEN TITANS and JUSTICE LEAGUE (w/ Spoilers)
- Thread starter Hand of Vecna
- Start date
Chun-tzu
First Post
Both rocked! JL Unlimited could easily become my favorite show.
Some interesting changes. GL's new look is good, but is it just me, or do they try to do that with all Black heroes at some point? Ben Sisko is a prime example, but there are others who have gone the exact same look. Not sure I like the new intro that much (looks like they'll show action shots of each show's new characters).
I love the JL having a crew. Makes them seem like a much bigger, more professional operation.
I'm not sure what I expected Green Arrow to sound like, but that wasn't really it. But that's no big deal. Was that the same voice for Supergirl? The way Green Arrow was translated to animation... that was really, really cool. We've seen Hawkeye and Speedy in recent cartoons, but they weren't as cool as this. We see some nice moves (that are the moves you'd expect from an Archer, not a martial artist or something), and when he fires those arrows that transform into something else (the net pops out, or the boxing glove...)... that was cool. And the end was a nice touch. (Black Canary's got a nice costume, but her classic look is a CLASSIC.)
Lots of interesting faces among the newbies, but Gypsy and Vibe?!? Uhhh... okay.... Anyway, I like Supergirl being on the team. In the comics, she's always been worthy of membership, but has rarely joined forces with the team.
So, ShadowX, who do you find annoying?
Some interesting changes. GL's new look is good, but is it just me, or do they try to do that with all Black heroes at some point? Ben Sisko is a prime example, but there are others who have gone the exact same look. Not sure I like the new intro that much (looks like they'll show action shots of each show's new characters).
I love the JL having a crew. Makes them seem like a much bigger, more professional operation.
I'm not sure what I expected Green Arrow to sound like, but that wasn't really it. But that's no big deal. Was that the same voice for Supergirl? The way Green Arrow was translated to animation... that was really, really cool. We've seen Hawkeye and Speedy in recent cartoons, but they weren't as cool as this. We see some nice moves (that are the moves you'd expect from an Archer, not a martial artist or something), and when he fires those arrows that transform into something else (the net pops out, or the boxing glove...)... that was cool. And the end was a nice touch. (Black Canary's got a nice costume, but her classic look is a CLASSIC.)
Lots of interesting faces among the newbies, but Gypsy and Vibe?!? Uhhh... okay.... Anyway, I like Supergirl being on the team. In the comics, she's always been worthy of membership, but has rarely joined forces with the team.
So, ShadowX, who do you find annoying?
Saw 'em both last night. Enjoyed TT, but I went nuts over JLU.
What I liked about JLU was the animation, the revamping/expanding of the Watchtower, and the breadth of new opportunities for characters. The animation was phenomenal. Although in the past I would have been concerned about "first episode" greatness (in which subsequent episodes reveal shoddy animation), I'm not so concerned in this case since the last two season featured excellent animation in every episode. I especially love how we see Superman, The Batman, and Wonder Woman as the "centerpiece" of the JLU in the title sequence. This story was also very well done.
Didn't like the guitar in the score for either the titles or the action sequences. Too... hokey. It's something I'd expect for a Marvel cartoon, not a DC cartoon. DC has always been about great orchestral sounds, classic sounds that have a timelessness and religiosity to them. The guitar is jarring and too modern. I'm also going to regret the removal of the two-parters. I really liked the two-parters.
As for the new GL... Well, if you look at most black characters in most genre related stuff, they're very rarely left looking like "generic" black people. Storm, for example, has blue eyes and white hair. Geordi wore a hair-brace over his eyes and Worf had a crab on his head (yes, I know he's a klingon, but Michael Dorn's the only other black actor in ST:TNG). And GL has glowing green eyes. There's always some physical change in the most popular black characters and I wonder if this is to make them more appealing to white audiences. If you look at the most popular white characters, rarely to they carry some kind of ethnic badge (like many of the black characters that appeared in the 70s) and the greatest, like Superman and Captain America, have no real changes in their physiognomy... They're just white. The only white characters of note that have such changes tend to be the mutants from Marvel (and this would include the whole gamut of "the beast within" characters all over Marvel like The Think and The Hulk).
Is this racist? Well, certainly not from an explicit intent. Is there some form of implicit racism? Perhaps. I mean, we rarely see black characters out there and when we do, the better know have features that are typically associated with black people. Is this bad? In some ways, yes... And it's to be expected. In neither big company is there a single huge, well regarded black character. The closest we get to that -- in terms of popular recognition -- is Blade and that's because of the success of the movie franchise, not the comic book. If anything, perhaps there need to be more stories like those that featured GL in JLU in which his race is never an issue (aside from that amusing comment from the one two-parter from that dimension in which one of the Justice Guild or whatever tells him that he's a credit to his race). Hell, IIRC, this is the first American cartoon that prominently featured an interracial relationship (take away her wings and Hawkgirl's a white woman) and that's a great thing.
So, I'm willing to ignore the bald head and goatee. On some of us black guys, it's quite sexy.
What I liked about JLU was the animation, the revamping/expanding of the Watchtower, and the breadth of new opportunities for characters. The animation was phenomenal. Although in the past I would have been concerned about "first episode" greatness (in which subsequent episodes reveal shoddy animation), I'm not so concerned in this case since the last two season featured excellent animation in every episode. I especially love how we see Superman, The Batman, and Wonder Woman as the "centerpiece" of the JLU in the title sequence. This story was also very well done.
Didn't like the guitar in the score for either the titles or the action sequences. Too... hokey. It's something I'd expect for a Marvel cartoon, not a DC cartoon. DC has always been about great orchestral sounds, classic sounds that have a timelessness and religiosity to them. The guitar is jarring and too modern. I'm also going to regret the removal of the two-parters. I really liked the two-parters.
As for the new GL... Well, if you look at most black characters in most genre related stuff, they're very rarely left looking like "generic" black people. Storm, for example, has blue eyes and white hair. Geordi wore a hair-brace over his eyes and Worf had a crab on his head (yes, I know he's a klingon, but Michael Dorn's the only other black actor in ST:TNG). And GL has glowing green eyes. There's always some physical change in the most popular black characters and I wonder if this is to make them more appealing to white audiences. If you look at the most popular white characters, rarely to they carry some kind of ethnic badge (like many of the black characters that appeared in the 70s) and the greatest, like Superman and Captain America, have no real changes in their physiognomy... They're just white. The only white characters of note that have such changes tend to be the mutants from Marvel (and this would include the whole gamut of "the beast within" characters all over Marvel like The Think and The Hulk).
Is this racist? Well, certainly not from an explicit intent. Is there some form of implicit racism? Perhaps. I mean, we rarely see black characters out there and when we do, the better know have features that are typically associated with black people. Is this bad? In some ways, yes... And it's to be expected. In neither big company is there a single huge, well regarded black character. The closest we get to that -- in terms of popular recognition -- is Blade and that's because of the success of the movie franchise, not the comic book. If anything, perhaps there need to be more stories like those that featured GL in JLU in which his race is never an issue (aside from that amusing comment from the one two-parter from that dimension in which one of the Justice Guild or whatever tells him that he's a credit to his race). Hell, IIRC, this is the first American cartoon that prominently featured an interracial relationship (take away her wings and Hawkgirl's a white woman) and that's a great thing.
So, I'm willing to ignore the bald head and goatee. On some of us black guys, it's quite sexy.
Hand of Vecna
First Post
Chun-tzu said:
Supergirl was voiced by Nichole Tom, Green Arrow was voiced by Kin Shriner. According to the TV Guide for the week of July 25-31, Kin Shriner was so dedicated to his role as Green Arrow that he showed up at the recording studio dressed as the character from the comic book.
Among all the heroes present that I could see: Green Arrow, Red Tornado, Obsidian, Sand, Atom-Smasher, Dr. Light 2 (female Japanese version, not the Teen Titans villian), Sand, Ice, Wildcat, Vigilante (the Western hero - Greg Saunders), Starman (the alien prince), Johnny Thunder and his Thunderbolt, the Spectre, Rocket Red, Metamorpho, Bwana Beast, Hawk & Dove, Elongated Man, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.S., the Question, Aquaman, Aztek, Vixen, the Demon Etrigan, the Huntress, Steel III (John Henry), the Atom (shrinking version - Ray Palmer), Mr. Terrific II, the Creeper, Fire, Zatanna, Orion, Gypsy, Vibe, Black Canary, Steel II (Hank Heywood), and Nemesis (Tom Tresser).
Oh, and did anyone find it odd that, given the big theme of "teamwork" and "non-solo antics," The Creeper was up there?
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Sir Osis of Liver
Explorer
I spotted Booster gold, and (IIRC) Blue beetle in one shot as well.
I also disliked GA's voice when i first hears it, but by the end of the episode it had grown on me, and i ended up like it quite a bit. I also think they nailed his character quite well. I hope they use him a lot over the course of the series. I'm also looking forward to seeing the Atom in action.
I'm surprised Firestorm wasn't in the croud.
I also disliked GA's voice when i first hears it, but by the end of the episode it had grown on me, and i ended up like it quite a bit. I also think they nailed his character quite well. I hope they use him a lot over the course of the series. I'm also looking forward to seeing the Atom in action.
I'm surprised Firestorm wasn't in the croud.
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Chun-tzu
First Post
Serge, I agree that John Stewart has been portrayed quite well, and serves as a good role model. I think they've done a good job of touching on his race, but not defining his character by the color of his skin. I don't think there's anything racist about his look, just a bit cliche. Although, is that the look the alternate Green Lantern had in A Better World?
Sir Osis, I also noticed Firestorm's absence. I think he's the only JLA member through the silver age who hasn't shown up, which is a bit strange, given that he played a prominent role in the last Super Powers cartoon. Except for Hawkman, that is, who certainly can't make an appearance without the whole Hawkgirl thing being sorted out.
I've figured out what bugged me about Green Arrow's voice. Green Arrow is a hothead. He was frequently getting into arguments, especially with Hawkman. This guy sounded fairly mellow. But he did a good job, nonetheless.
Sir Osis, I also noticed Firestorm's absence. I think he's the only JLA member through the silver age who hasn't shown up, which is a bit strange, given that he played a prominent role in the last Super Powers cartoon. Except for Hawkman, that is, who certainly can't make an appearance without the whole Hawkgirl thing being sorted out.
I've figured out what bugged me about Green Arrow's voice. Green Arrow is a hothead. He was frequently getting into arguments, especially with Hawkman. This guy sounded fairly mellow. But he did a good job, nonetheless.
Villano
First Post
Both were pretty good. I never warmed to Justice League. There were too many problems for me on that series. Powers would fluctuate wildly between (or even within) episodes (the Flash can race around the world in 2 seconds but can't catch a truck), and endings seemed tacked on at the last minute without much logic (Hawkgirl knocks back a "planet destroying" laser with her mace or Luthor's anti-superpower ray). This episode seemed like a step up. The climax at least made sense (although
). 
Hopefully, the smaller teams and rotating cast will keep things fresh. Besides, I've always been more of a fan of third and fourth string heroes than the big guns. I can't wait for the Bwana Beast episode!
And I really, really, really want to see Vixen. I liked the redesign. Last time I saw her in the comics, she was wearing an ugly purple jumpsuit.
Nemesis! I couldn't think of that guy's name! He seems kind of an odd choice since, iirc, he was a secret agent.
Also, I spotted Orion, Hourman, Takion, and the original Crimson Avenger (you can only see the head of someone wearing a red mask and a grey fedora with a red band on it).
The music sucked. It sounded like they were going for Queen's Flash Gordon soundtrack. It was good when Queen did it, but it was terrible here.
I chopped up your post to address a couple of points:
Don't forget Whoopie Goldberg. She came in part way through the series. Even though she wasn't a member of the crew, she was in a lot of episodes.
Granted, you had the black Vulcan on Voyager (I never watched the show, so I don't know his name), but there was nother wrong with Capt. Sisko, Jake Sisko, Cassidy Yates, or Uhura. I'm not sure if there are any black characters on Enterprise since I don't get the channels that carry it.
And, sad to say, there's probably more than twice the black actors on ST than Latino, Native American, and Asians combined.
But Storm's a mutant, too. Toad, Wolverine, Beast (either version), and Nightcrawler don't look like typical white people, either. She shouldn't be held to a different standard.
Also, don't forget that Storm was one of the few X-Men of the time who didn't wear a mask. I can only think of Colossus and Nightcrawler. They both have a distinctive look, and I think the same thought processes went into creating Storm.
But what do I know? I've always liked mohawk Storm, myself.
I have to disagree with certain parts of what you said. I think you're reading too much into GL's green eyes. A number of white heroes have glowing eyes or fiery hair or such things.
Plus, don't forget Mr. Terrific and Vixen were there and they look physically "normal". True, Terrific's mask made his eyes look red, but then the Flash's and Batman's make their's look white.
OTOH, we do need more black comic heroes. The problem is that when Marvel or DC try to do that, they end up screwing it up. They'll decide that they want a comic about a 15 yr old black kid from the city and hire John Byrne, Peter David, or some other 50 yr old white guy to write it (most likely someone from Canada or England). They need young, black writers.
To get a greater black audience, you need a black comic hero. To write the comic, you need a black writer. To get a writer, you need to pull from the black audience. That would be the same black audience you're trying to get in the first place. It's a vicious circle.
Sometimes you get someone in the company who's "socially conscious" and wants to launch a black character. The problem with that is you end up with them creating characters who wear, as you put it, ethnic badges. They're there to be the black guy (or Asian guy or Native American guy). For exasmple, how many black characters have "Black" in their name?
Take a look at Super Friends. You've got the black guy called Black Vulcan, the Japanese Samurai, the Native American Apache Chief, and the Latino El Dorado. One guy's wearing buck skins and a loin cloth and another is named after a city of gold! "I'm El Dorado and this is my sidekick, Lake Titicaca."
Blade is probably the best chance to bring in young black readers. However, how many people actually know he was a comic book character? And Marvel dropped the ball on that with their initial comic adaption. It didn't have a climax. It actually ended with a "How will it end? Go see the movie!". I can't see very many readers being draw into collecting with that. :\
To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters. If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping. If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.
"You're a credit to your people." That was great. I love the look GL gives him.
Was anything said in the episode they went back to WW2? If there wasn't, that would be strange. Of course, it was strange that they did a WW2 episode without any direct Nazi references.
Of course, in that relationship, I don't think people will notice the race issue so much as the fact that she looks like one of those winged aliens that conquered the Earth some time back.
And, in Batman Beyond, Terry (the new Batman) was dating an Asian girl. Also, iirc, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon was married to a black man. Plus, in the direct-to video, Mystery Of The Batwoman, Batman was dating a black woman.
There have been other, minor, interracial relationships in other cartoons like Codename: Kids Next Door. In that one, there's a running gag dealing with Number Two having a crush on the older sister of Number Five, Cree. In one episode, he got turned into a teenager and went on a date with her. In the end, she was revealed to be an agent working for the "evil" adults. Number Five likes to rub Cree's nose in the fact that she dated a "stupid kid".
you have to wonder how many of those scientists were executed for creating an "ultimate weapon" that can be stopped by a guy with a bow and arrow
Hopefully, the smaller teams and rotating cast will keep things fresh. Besides, I've always been more of a fan of third and fourth string heroes than the big guns. I can't wait for the Bwana Beast episode!
And I really, really, really want to see Vixen. I liked the redesign. Last time I saw her in the comics, she was wearing an ugly purple jumpsuit.
Hand of Vecna said:
Nemesis! I couldn't think of that guy's name! He seems kind of an odd choice since, iirc, he was a secret agent.
Also, I spotted Orion, Hourman, Takion, and the original Crimson Avenger (you can only see the head of someone wearing a red mask and a grey fedora with a red band on it).
The Serge said:
The music sucked. It sounded like they were going for Queen's Flash Gordon soundtrack. It was good when Queen did it, but it was terrible here.
I chopped up your post to address a couple of points:
Don't forget Whoopie Goldberg. She came in part way through the series. Even though she wasn't a member of the crew, she was in a lot of episodes.
Granted, you had the black Vulcan on Voyager (I never watched the show, so I don't know his name), but there was nother wrong with Capt. Sisko, Jake Sisko, Cassidy Yates, or Uhura. I'm not sure if there are any black characters on Enterprise since I don't get the channels that carry it.
And, sad to say, there's probably more than twice the black actors on ST than Latino, Native American, and Asians combined.
But Storm's a mutant, too. Toad, Wolverine, Beast (either version), and Nightcrawler don't look like typical white people, either. She shouldn't be held to a different standard.
Also, don't forget that Storm was one of the few X-Men of the time who didn't wear a mask. I can only think of Colossus and Nightcrawler. They both have a distinctive look, and I think the same thought processes went into creating Storm.
But what do I know? I've always liked mohawk Storm, myself.
I have to disagree with certain parts of what you said. I think you're reading too much into GL's green eyes. A number of white heroes have glowing eyes or fiery hair or such things.
Plus, don't forget Mr. Terrific and Vixen were there and they look physically "normal". True, Terrific's mask made his eyes look red, but then the Flash's and Batman's make their's look white.
OTOH, we do need more black comic heroes. The problem is that when Marvel or DC try to do that, they end up screwing it up. They'll decide that they want a comic about a 15 yr old black kid from the city and hire John Byrne, Peter David, or some other 50 yr old white guy to write it (most likely someone from Canada or England). They need young, black writers.
To get a greater black audience, you need a black comic hero. To write the comic, you need a black writer. To get a writer, you need to pull from the black audience. That would be the same black audience you're trying to get in the first place. It's a vicious circle.
Sometimes you get someone in the company who's "socially conscious" and wants to launch a black character. The problem with that is you end up with them creating characters who wear, as you put it, ethnic badges. They're there to be the black guy (or Asian guy or Native American guy). For exasmple, how many black characters have "Black" in their name?
Take a look at Super Friends. You've got the black guy called Black Vulcan, the Japanese Samurai, the Native American Apache Chief, and the Latino El Dorado. One guy's wearing buck skins and a loin cloth and another is named after a city of gold! "I'm El Dorado and this is my sidekick, Lake Titicaca."
Blade is probably the best chance to bring in young black readers. However, how many people actually know he was a comic book character? And Marvel dropped the ball on that with their initial comic adaption. It didn't have a climax. It actually ended with a "How will it end? Go see the movie!". I can't see very many readers being draw into collecting with that. :\
To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters. If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping. If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.
"You're a credit to your people." That was great. I love the look GL gives him.
Was anything said in the episode they went back to WW2? If there wasn't, that would be strange. Of course, it was strange that they did a WW2 episode without any direct Nazi references.
Of course, in that relationship, I don't think people will notice the race issue so much as the fact that she looks like one of those winged aliens that conquered the Earth some time back.
And, in Batman Beyond, Terry (the new Batman) was dating an Asian girl. Also, iirc, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon was married to a black man. Plus, in the direct-to video, Mystery Of The Batwoman, Batman was dating a black woman.
There have been other, minor, interracial relationships in other cartoons like Codename: Kids Next Door. In that one, there's a running gag dealing with Number Two having a crush on the older sister of Number Five, Cree. In one episode, he got turned into a teenager and went on a date with her. In the end, she was revealed to be an agent working for the "evil" adults. Number Five likes to rub Cree's nose in the fact that she dated a "stupid kid".
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JoeGKushner
Adventurer
Villano said:
I think that you're completely off base here. Milestone had a whole series of black comics and they failed. They had a wide range of character types from young tough thugs to brilliant intellictuals. I enjoyed almost all of them ranging from Icon, Blood Syndicate, Hardware and Static.
I could be wrong but I just don't think the black audience is there and I think that to PC more black characters into the mainstream just because it's PC is stupid. It's like making super heroes into homosexuals because it's now PC.
Do I object to seeing black heroes? No. Hardware was a great book. Icon was a great book. I was never too crazy about Blood Syndicate or Static but they often had some good runs. Do I mind seeing characters who are homosexual from the get go? No.
I just think that trying to put these elements into comics because it's PC is nonsense and that until those audiences vote with their dollars to keep those comics going, that such efforts will not only fail, but will continue to alienate regular fans when those PC elements are stuffed into regular comics.
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