New TEEN TITANS and JUSTICE LEAGUE (w/ Spoilers)

[Klaus]

I must chime in to mention that Static Shock in a great cartoon (is it still being produced?) with a black superhero (and his white sidekick, no less! ).

 

[The Serge]

I chopped up your post to address a couple of points:

Okay!

Don't forget Whoopie Goldberg. She came in part way through the series. Even though she wasn't a member of the crew, she was in a lot of episodes.

Yeah... But she had no eyebrows! JK... You're right here.

Granted, you had the black Vulcan on Voyager (I never watched the show, so I don't know his name), but there was nother wrong with Capt. Sisko, Jake Sisko, Cassidy Yates, or Uhura. I'm not sure if there are any black characters on Enterprise since I don't get the channels that carry it.

I think they had no choice with DS9... Afterall, the primary character/star was black and they had wanted to flesh out his character in a certain direction. I will say that I believe that the handling of Sisko's character was fantastic. Although I had problems with the fact that he had to start out as a Commander (of all the "leaders" of every ST show, he's the only one who didn't start out as a Captain), I believe that the character's portrayal shattered a lot of stereotypes. First, he was a single parent. It is rare to see black males as single parents in movies or television. Second, he had a strong relationship with his father, another rarity. And, his race rarely (if ever) to my knowledge came up. So, I think that generally, Sisko was handled very well.

And, sad to say, there's probably more than twice the black actors on ST than Latino, Native American, and Asians combined.

An unfortunate situation, although I think that this is due to the tremendous amount of attention that's been placed upon the black aspects of the U.S.'s civil rights movement (for right or wrong).

But Storm's a mutant, too. Toad, Wolverine, Beast (either version), and Nightcrawler don't look like typical white people, either. She shouldn't be held to a different standard.

Excellent point. However, what I was getting at is that she's one of the few visible black characters until recently. Most black characters share her "otherness" and they aren't mutants. There's an inordinant amount of black characters with a "special" look to them while we don't see that as frequently with white characters unless they're mutants (generally speaking).

But what do I know? I've always liked mohawk Storm, myself.

Yech. I never liked the mohawk.

I have to disagree with certain parts of what you said. I think you're reading too much into GL's green eyes. A number of white heroes have glowing eyes or fiery hair or such things.

True... But, I'm getting into percentages at this point. Most black characters have something unique to their appearance while most white characters tend not to have such uniqueness... This is especially the case for the iconic characters.

OTOH, we do need more black comic heroes. The problem is that when Marvel or DC try to do that, they end up screwing it up. They'll decide that they want a comic about a 15 yr old black kid from the city and hire John Byrne, Peter David, or some other 50 yr old white guy to write it (most likely someone from Canada or England). They need young, black writers.

The problem isn't so much who's writing the material as much as it's a problem of the direction that people seem to think black characters need to move. I think it's a mistake to paint all black characters as coming out of the inner cities with a great emphasis on their race and ethnicity. I think that there are plenty of write writers who could write great stories that just happen to feature black characters. Now, if the goal becomes one in which the character's race is important, perhaps a black writer would be helpful, but I believe that a competent white writer could pull it off as well. As long as the writing doesn't steep into cliches and stereotypes about being black (and therein lies the challenge), I think anyone can pull it off. Afterall, it doesn't necessarily take a male writer to write about female characters.

To get a greater black audience, you need a black comic hero. To write the comic, you need a black writer. To get a writer, you need to pull from the black audience. That would be the same black audience you're trying to get in the first place. It's a vicious circle.

The problem here is that most of the icons have already been accounted for. The challenge is finding the proper paradigm in which to place such a character.

Actually, I think the cartoon character, Static Shock, would make for a great comic book character. He's not from the inner city, he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder, he doesn't look strange or weird. He has a strong familial background. He has no political interests. But, he's black and one can feel that he's black without it being an issue (it's ashame that he has the little white sidekick... It's almost as if the producers felt that there had to be a prominent white buddy in order for the show to sell).

To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters. If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping. If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.

Static Shock reveals that this can be done. Hell, GL could be handled differently. He could have come up in the 'hood, but against all odds made it out and ended up doing well financially and eventually as a Green Lantern. This could be very much a sideline issue and not the focus of his character, but an element to help flesh him out.

I do agree that what tends to happen is that too many writers either bow to stereotypes or they go too far in reversing stereotypes. Back in the 70s and 80s with characters like Black Vulcan, Apache Chief, Samauri, and El Dorado, that was the time to feature new ethnic characters because there needed to be greater awareness. We've moved past that now. Now, if we had a character named Vulcan, who just happened to be black, it would work. If we had a guy called Monolith who just happened to be Native American, that would work. And so on. The race, while a part of the character, needn't be the focus. Writers, black and white, need to learn how to do this. In doing so, they need to recognize that there's no need to incorporate physical differences unless necessary. In the case of Vulcan, flaming eyes when he uses his powers if fine... Hell, you could even make him redbone. But a red streak through the hair or giving him perpetually red eyes seems to be an attempt to rob the character of his racial identity.

"You're a credit to your people." That was great. I love the look GL gives him.

It was a great scene and a revelation that these cartoons aren't just for kids.

Was anything said in the episode they went back to WW2? If there wasn't, that would be strange. Of course, it was strange that they did a WW2 episode without any direct Nazi references.

I don't think there was a reference to it during the WWII episodes... As for the Nazi references, I don't think they could get away with it at all. They didn't even mention Hitler's name.

And, in Batman Beyond, Terry (the new Batman) was dating an Asian girl. Also, iirc, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon was married to a black man. Plus, in the direct-to video, Mystery Of The Batwoman, Batman was dating a black woman.

I suppose Terry's girlfriend was Asian. And you're right about the Gordon/DA thing. However, this wasn't a high profile thing between central characters that continued over the course of quite a few episodes.

There have been other, minor, interracial relationships in other cartoons like Codename: Kids Next Door. In that one, there's a running gag dealing with Number Two having a crush on the older sister of Number Five, Cree. In one episode, he got turned into a teenager and went on a date with her. In the end, she was revealed to be an agent working for the "evil" adults. Number Five likes to rub Cree's nose in the fact that she dated a "stupid kid".

I love this show.

We are seeing a thawing of this sort of thing and I think that's great for children and young adults.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Actually, I think the cartoon character, Static Shock, would make for a great comic book character. He's not from the inner city, he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder, he doesn't look strange or weird. He has a strong familial background. He has no political interests. But, he's black and one can feel that he's black without it being an issue (it's ashame that he has the little white sidekick... It's almost as if the producers felt that there had to be a prominent white buddy in order for the show to sell).


Static Shock reveals that this can be done. Hell, GL could be handled differently. He could have come up in the 'hood, but against all odds made it out and ended up doing well financially and eventually as a Green Lantern. This could be very much a sideline issue and not the focus of his character, but an element to help flesh him out.
.

See, here is the problem. Static was a comic. he was one of the heroes in the Milestone line up with Icon, Hardware and others. It has been done. It didn't sell.

Does that mean it shouldn't be tried again? Of course not. It just shouldn't be touted that it's never been done before or that it will automatically make it just on being the 'correct' way to portray such a character.

 

[The Serge]

Milestone had a whole series of black comics and they failed. They had a wide range of character types from young tough thugs to brilliant intellictuals. I enjoyed almost all of them ranging from Icon, Blood Syndicate, Hardware and Static.

The problem with Milestone is that it seemed to concentrate heavily on black superheroes rather than just one superheroes. Furthermore, there was little crossover continuity with DC. And, to make matters worse, from what I saw, the characters were largely carbon copies of existing icons.

I could be wrong but I just don't think the black audience is there and I think that to PC more black characters into the mainstream just because it's PC is stupid. It's like making super heroes into homosexuals because it's now PC.

The black audience is there. The problem is that the creators haven't figured out that the black audience wants to see and read about heroes who just happen to be black.

I do think that this is a case of trying to incorporate something without thinking it through, so I suppose that's so-called "PC."

I just think that trying to put these elements into comics because it's PC is nonsense and that until those audiences vote with their dollars to keep those comics going, that such efforts will not only fail, but will continue to alienate regular fans when those PC elements are stuffed into regular comics.

The effort should be in writing good comics. If a sociopolitical statement is made during that time, fine, but that shouldn't be the focal point in most cases. The challenge is to write about a cool character that just happens to be black. Spawn started out this way. The character's black, but that's not the focus of the story.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The effort should be in writing good comics. If a sociopolitical statement is made during that time, fine, but that shouldn't be the focal point in most cases. The challenge is to write about a cool character that just happens to be black. Spawn started out this way. The character's black, but that's not the focus of the story.

I agree with you 100%. I read a lot. A good story will sell. However, Spawn isn't necessarily a good story. It's a by-product of Todd's art and he rode it through brilliantly with many cross over products and events. I could be wrong, but it didn't matter what race/color Spawn is because of the creator and the early efforst behind it.

Most of the time when it's just about the story, a story where the character's race and crred don't matter, especially when it's a non-what character, it fails to live up the hype or image behind it. There are exceptions but the characters the keep coming back are generlaly those that live in those areas and deal with those problems like Luke Cage. People want those stories but dont' want them all them time. I don't know what the thinking is behidn this, but perhaps it's, "Well, this is just like this comic, but the character is black. Should I buy this comic just because the characters is black?"

I have no idea of what the % is of comic purchasers race are. I'd be interested to see it. If the market isn't there, it's just not there. Heck, the market has been failing for almost all types of comics these days and even with the super heroes movies, is failing in its traditional monthly role. Perhaps something new will evolve from it?

 

[Villano]

I think that you're completely off base here. Milestone had a whole series of black comics and they failed. They had a wide range of character types from young tough thugs to brilliant intellictuals. I enjoyed almost all of them ranging from Icon, Blood Syndicate, Hardware and Static.

I could be wrong but I just don't think the black audience is there and I think that to PC more black characters into the mainstream just because it's PC is stupid. It's like making super heroes into homosexuals because it's now PC.

Do I object to seeing black heroes? No. Hardware was a great book. Icon was a great book. I was never too crazy about Blood Syndicate or Static but they often had some good runs. Do I mind seeing characters who are homosexual from the get go? No.

I just think that trying to put these elements into comics because it's PC is nonsense and that until those audiences vote with their dollars to keep those comics going, that such efforts will not only fail, but will continue to alienate regular fans when those PC elements are stuffed into regular comics.

I think you missed the point of my thread, or, at least the part where I said:

Sometimes you get someone in the company who's "socially conscious" and wants to launch a black character. The problem with that is you end up with them creating characters who wear, as you put it, ethnic badges. They're there to be the black guy (or Asian guy or Native American guy). For exasmple, how many black characters have "Black" in their name?

Take a look at Super Friends. You've got the black guy called Black Vulcan, the Japanese Samurai, the Native American Apache Chief, and the Latino El Dorado. One guy's wearing buck skins and a loin cloth and another is named after a city of gold! "I'm El Dorado and this is my sidekick, Lake Titicaca."

I'm against putting in a character to be the "black guy", but I do think it would be nice to see a wide variety of heroes just because so many heroes see to be the same.

As for Milestone, I don't know why it failed. I've heard that there's a book out about the company, but I haven't read it. It may not have been a lack of sales, but mismanagement that killed the company. It's why people like M.C. Hammer and Mike Tyson can make $100 million dollars and end up bankrupt.

And Marvel and DC would be crazy not to try and find a way to tap into any kind of larger market. More sales equals more money for them.

 

[Klaus]

Well, for variety without stereotypes, I recommend DC's Outsiders.

Grace Choi -> Asian-descended strong woman.
Anissa Pierce -> Density-controlling daughter of Black Lightning.
Rex Mason -> Metamorpho himself, he's what?- 6 different colors?
Jenny Lynn-Hayden -> Jade. a green supermodel!
Indigo -> Blue-skinned, pink-haired female android (gynoid?) from the future.

The comic doesn't carry the Comics Code stamp, so the writer (Judd Winnick) can get away with more stuff, like sexual innuendo between Arsenal and Grace (including Grace's mentions of Plastic Man!) and a whole lotta cussin'!

And while you're at it, check out Teen Titans (now led by Victor Stone/Cyborg).

 

[Chimera]

Just wanted to mention that Static Shock (who I've watched, but don't see all that often) has had visits from Superman and I believe, Batman. Thus establishing them in the same universe (of a sort).

Superman even says something about him making a great addition to the Justice League when he grows up.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Another character

When someone mentioned Blade, it made me think of Ghost Dog. Now talk about a weird character eh? A modern day samuria working for the mob. Now you're talking!

 

[Klaus]

Just wanted to mention that Static Shock (who I've watched, but don't see all that often) has had visits from Superman and I believe, Batman. Thus establishing them in the same universe (of a sort).

Superman even says something about him making a great addition to the Justice League when he grows up.

In the cartoon, it's been established that Dakota (the city where Static Shock lives) is in the same universe as the Batman, Superman and Justice League cartoons. But in the original comics, it was an entirely different setting (in fact, there was a multidimensional crossover titled "When Worlds Collide" that tried to hype up the Milestone line a bit).