New tidbit about spells and hit points.

[WarlockLord]

True, but at least it hurts both sides. Plus, blast...blast...blast is just repititive and dumb. And removing many save or dies is illogical. If a necromancer has complete mastery over death magic, why shouldn't he be able to kill people with his mind? Why can't an enchanter shut down a target's mind? If a transmuter can rearrange matter to suit his bidding, why not turn his enemy into a toad? Why can't an illusionist cause a heart attack via illusions? Couldn't a conjuror or evoker summon fire inside his opponent's vital organs?

Why should these guys stick to buff & blast?

 

[grimslade]

I see Save or Die spells becoming Save or Lots o' Damage. I think Save or Suck spells will stay, like Baleful Polymorph, Hold Monster, Dominate. They will all have the renewed save roll each round to break the effect.
There are other conditions beyond bloodied. Shaken, Sicken and Dazed to name a few. As video gamey as it sounds this lends itself to combinations to defeating foes. We have it in 3.5. Intimidating Strike by a Hexblade followed by casting Fear with a Dark Minion moves foes down the fear condition track quickly. I expect some SoD coul return with a combination of conditions or alternate effects depending on condition. Two saves or die?

 

[A'koss]

Keep in mind that straight damage is still "save or die" or even "save and die" for powerful beings vs lesser ones. The mighty HL Necromancer can still kill 99% of the general populace with a single spell, powerful Illusionists still kill with their powers and so on but when it's a battle between peers, it should never come down to just a single die roll. Because in HL combat that's what every climatic battle will boil down to, assuming it can be used. IMO, they should be big cinematic battles, rewarding clever tactics and strategy over who gets lucky with their SoD attacks in the opening rounds.

Just my 2 bits...

 

[hong]

Personally, I'd rather see all the Save or Die effects stripped away.

While yes it can be fun for some players to take down the BBEBoss with a single strike it is not so fun for the DM who carefully set up the final epic battle over the last two months of playing. And it's not fun for the player who spent the last two months going through an adventure only to sit out the final epic battle because he failed his SoD in the opening round. So he goes off and scowls in front of the TV for the next hour as everyone else continues with the fun.

Heck, it's not that much fun for some players too. Back in 2001, the wiz in our group KO'd Imix in RttToEE with a disintegrate in the first round. It was anticlimactic enough that he's since consciously avoided using instakill spells.

 

[Dinkeldog]

So basically people are happy that lots of stuff is removed from the game to make it simple, and happy that we have one more condition to keep track of? :\

I think that extra complications could be fun, but should better be considered as variants to put in the DMG rather than making it mandatory for every game.

Better or worse than poison?

 

[Dinkeldog]

Keep in mind that straight damage is still "save or die" or even "save and die" for powerful beings vs lesser ones. The mighty HL Necromancer can still kill 99% of the general populace with a single spell, powerful Illusionists still kill with their powers and so on but when it's a battle between peers, it should never come down to just a single die roll. Because in HL combat that's what every climatic battle will boil down to, assuming it can be used. IMO, they should be big cinematic battles, rewarding clever tactics and strategy over who gets lucky with their SoD attacks in the opening rounds.

Just my 2 bits...

Reminds me of the OotS strip with the high cleric and the goblin cleric "dueling".

 

[A'koss]

Reminds me of the OotS strip with the high cleric and the goblin cleric "dueling".

I'm going to have to find that one again, I can only vaguely recall it...

 

[MerricB]

I'm going to have to find that one again, I can only vaguely recall it...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

Cheers!

 

[A'koss]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

Cheers!

LOL!

This is why no one ever pimps cleric duels...

 

[Victim]

Keep in mind that straight damage is still "save or die" or even "save and die" for powerful beings vs lesser ones. The mighty HL Necromancer can still kill 99% of the general populace with a single spell, powerful Illusionists still kill with their powers and so on but when it's a battle between peers, it should never come down to just a single die roll. Because in HL combat that's what every climatic battle will boil down to, assuming it can be used. IMO, they should be big cinematic battles, rewarding clever tactics and strategy over who gets lucky with their SoD attacks in the opening rounds.

Just my 2 bits...

In my experience, between huge damage and save or die effects, high level combat pretty much just is the opening rounds. Getting lucky with a save or die is no worse than the power attack Axe crit or landing most hits on a full attack.