D&D 5E New Wandering Monsters - Hulking Out

[Weather Report]

Got it, 4e is not D&D. Well done, deep insight there.

Just stating that Heinsoo & Co.'s "vision" is not shared.

 

[D'karr]

Just stating that Heinsoo & Co.'s "vision" is not shared.

Seems like your "vision" is not shared either, but let's leave it at that.

 

[Umbran]

Not at all, there is a commonality between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Ed; 4th Ed is an Advanced version of the Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures game, has little to do with D&D.

Folks,

The moderation staff of EN World has had more than enough of this "Edition X is not D&D" nonsense. As far as we are concerned, it is transparent, dismissive OneTrueWayism that implies that the way other people play is wrong. This site is founded on the basic precept that there's many players with many desires, and the fact that you do't like something doesn't mean you can call it wrong.

So, really, let this cliche die, please and thank you.

 

[Nymrohd]

That 2e Monstrous Compendium that you reference Nymrod came out several years after the release of 2e. 2e, in core, didn't have demons or devils until MC 8 which, IIRC, was three years after release.

So, no, 2e didn't have demons and devils for quite some time. But, reread your 3e Monster Manual. There are no references to the Blood War. None. No references whatsoever that demons and devils didn't get along. No references at all to anything remotely Planescape in nature. All of that was relegated to supplements although it did filter back in in 3.5.

Look at the section on Archons in 3e. Again, completely different than what you see in 2e. All of them are lumped together with LG, NG and CG all being the same critter type. Look at the flavour text. Again, nothing 2e in nature.

Yes, later on, a lot of 2e lore starts to get filtered back into 3e. But, at the outset? In core? Virtually nothing 2e survives into 3e. Heck, compare clerics. A 2e cleric gains Druid spells up to 2nd level - a 3e cleric can cast all "druid" spells up to 9th. A 2e cleric tops out casting at 14th with 7th level spells. A 3e cleric tops out at 17th with 9th level spells. The spell lists are completely changed with 3e clerics gaining all sorts of combat spells. 3e clerics out of the gate can use edged weapons if they choose to. 3e clerics gain spontaneous casting of healing spells. 3e clerics, in core, use Greyhawk dieties as the default. 3e clerics can craft magic items at 1st level and can craft virtually any magic item given time.

On and on and on.

There are easily as many differences between 2e and 3e as there are between 3e and 4e. 3e rejects virtually all things 2e and retains almost nothing of its flavour.

That's odd. I opened the MoP to be sure before posting it and I found numerous mentions of the Blood War all over the lower planes, plus multiple locations that were added in the "Planes of . . ." boxed set series. Want me to list page numbers?

Oh scratch that, don't even have to. It's in the bloody index under BLOOD WAR.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Whoops didn't see the red text before posting.

 

[Hussar]

That's odd. I opened the MoP to be sure before posting it and I found numerous mentions of the Blood War all over the lower planes, plus multiple locations that were added in the "Planes of . . ." boxed set series. Want me to list page numbers?

Oh scratch that, don't even have to. It's in the bloody index under BLOOD WAR.

I'm sorry, what part of core is the Manual of the Planes? I missed that "Core Rulebook" designation on that setting supplement.

Again, going back to comparing CORE TO CORE, which was the point I made earlier, there are very, very few elements that survive the transition from 2e to 3e.

 

[Nymrohd]

At the same time, 3E even in Core did not actually change anything. It just went vague. It doesn't say anything specific about archons and guardinals, never says demons and devils are good to put together in an encounter. The additional spells the cleric and druid got access to are almost entirely quest spells they had access to through Tome of Magic or bigger versions of older spells. I am sorry but I don't see how 3E changed anything. It just became less specific. If your point is (and honestly that's what it seems to be) that the 3E-4E transition was not the only one to change things, well you are comparing two very different things. Not including details is not the same with deciding to change the entire lore of the game.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, because my 1st level Cleric of Heironeous casts Magic Weapon on his longsword and attacks the chaotic evil orc with his Monster Summoning 1 Celestial Badger and you are 100% correct, nothing changed from 2e.

3e ejected almost all of the flavour of 2e. Kept virtually nothing. It might have added it back in later, but, at first, almost nothing 2e survived. Heck, there's a reason that Dragonsfoot won't let you talk about 3e and it's not because 3e was so close to 2e. But, in the past few years, it's suddenly been vogue to pretend that there's this unbroken chain up to 4e that 4e made these huge changes and broke the chain.

Sorry, but the chain was snapped in 2000. Heck, 2e rejected much of 1e as well. That's WHY 1e players don't like 2e. 2e's tone and flavour a hugely different from 1e. 3e went a long way back towards 1e but added a lot of Rolemaster into the mix.

But, yeah, this isn't going to go anywhere and it's just going to devolve into edition warring, so, I'll stop now.

 

[Weather Report]

3e ejected almost all of the flavour of 2e. Kept virtually nothing.

Kept virtually all of it, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiendish Codices, Greyhawk, etc, etc.

 

[Nymrohd]

Kept virtually all of it, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiendish Codices, Greyhawk, etc, etc.

Indeed I guess we have to agreee to disagree with Hussar. I mean MoP was published within a year of 3E.