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D&D 4E New Year, New 4e

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Legend
One more go at making outcome based design versus process based design clear (in non-RPG terms).

In engineering/product design, outcome-based design is building, top-down, toward a specific idea/spec/prototype. The parts inherent to the process of creating it (overhead, infrastructure, overall budget, time-constraints) are all peripheral or irrelevant. The inverse is true for process-based. Process-based would be more bottom-up, nebulous, roundtable or think-tank stuff and hopefully something marketable/useful will emerge from the process.

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1 more.

4e NPC/monster creation = outcome based

3.x/PF NPC/monster creation = process based
Ah, I see what you're getting at. However, I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive. And I imagine you could have mechanics-narrative misalignment in either of those design models, since the issue is how the story is reflected in the mechanics and vice versa.
 

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Ah, I see what you're getting at. However, I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive. And I imagine you could have mechanics-narrative misalignment in either of those design models, since the issue is how the story is reflected in the mechanics and vice versa.

To be sure. There are design approaches that are a mesh of the two. However, I find that a focused design vision and infrastructure typically produces a more coherent product (regardless of the discipline or effort).
 

S'mon

Legend
Lots of good points NotAYakk; I see that I've already addressed many of them in my own 4e games, which is reassuring.

7: Skills where originally designed to keep pace with attacks/defences, but they don't. There are a bunch of legacy systems that presume this, and the game would be much tighter if it somehow held. But because skills are a one-evaluation effect (you roll to succeed, unlike attacks where you roll to succeed then roll to determine effect), you can easily fall into the not-fun part of the exponential power curve of DC vs roll bonus.

10: Magic item problems. At low levels, a magic item is nice but not game breaking. By level 30, a character without their magic items is crippled just from the lack of +8 to 12 to AC, +6 to all attacks, and +6 to 9 to non-AC defences (or more in some cases!) A 6 point swing in both your accuracy and defence makes you about 3 times weaker!

Meanwhile, at low-heroic, losing your magic items costs you a factor of 1.2x power.

Bonuses to accuracy and defence that scale with level are a bad thing. If all magic items granted a +1 bonus if they where tier-appropriate, and nothing otherwise, to your AC, Fort, Ref and Will and Attack bonus, they would still be very useful things to have. Their power could instead be back-loaded onto damage, where a scaling amount of damage doesn't result in an exponential impact on character performance.

On #7 skills - I have not found a problem yet; Hard DCs go up by around 23 points over 30 levels, 19>42; PCs with training & focus in that area tend to increase skills by around 3/4 of their level, same as monsters (monsters' ability scores go up by 1/2 their level giveing a 1/4 level boost to checks, plus the standard 1/2 level bonus). So a 30th level PC focused in an area is about +22 or +23 over his 1st level self. DCs that untrained/unfocused PCs are expected to beat need to be much lower of course.
So opposed skill rolls vs monsters, or rolls vs Passive scores, should work at all levels (unlike in 3e).
But I agree there will clearly be a problem at high level with skill rolls vs monster defences, since the numbers (bonus vs DC) diverge by around 8 points. Using lower level monsters can help a bit at high level, it also gives less optimised PCs some targets they can reliably hit. But the best solution would likely be to use opposed rolls rather than roll vs Fort/Ref/Will; eg breaking a grapple could be STR vs STR.

On #10, I have used Inherent Bonuses for the past 2 years and they completely solve the Crippled Without Items problem; a powerful weapon might give +1 to hit/damage over a mundane one, plus some nice crit bonus dice. For three-Tier play I think Inherent bonuses are vital. I am experimenting with not using them in an upcoming three-level mini-campaign, so that +1 items feel significant, but I would never not use them in extended play.

Re chickenscratch from high [W] attacks - I find the game runs much better with all monster hit points halved; at worst the occasional standard monster drops a bit quickly, but elites and solos feel just right now. I also give minions a Damage Threshold, making very low-damage attacks less effective. Multi-attack still generally beats high-W attack, I have not seen a problem yet (levels 1-10, 2011-12) but I expect it will be an issue by Epic tier ca 2015. :)
 
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NotAYakk

Legend
On #7 skills - I have not found a problem yet; Hard DCs go up by around 23 points over 30 levels, 19>42; PCs with training & focus in that area tend to increase skills by around 3/4 of their level, same as monsters (monsters' ability scores go up by 1/2 their level giveing a 1/4 level boost to checks, plus the standard 1/2 level bonus). So a 30th level PC focused in an area is about +22 or +23 over his 1st level self. DCs that untrained/unfocused PCs are expected to beat need to be much lower of course.
Do you have to scale DCs for how competent your party is?

A character unskilled and unfocused at something gets +16 over 30 levels, with a baseline of +0 or so.
A character skilled and focused at something gets +27-32 over 30 levels (15 level, 4-5 stat, 6 item, 2-6 feat), with a baseline of +10 or so.

Already at level 1, characters with high and low skill checks are auto-succeeding or auto-failing where the other character is challenged. By level 30, this must be assumed -- anyone with any chance at a high skill check will auto-succeed on easy, and anyone with any chance of failure on easy will auto-fail on hard.
So opposed skill rolls vs monsters, or rolls vs Passive scores, should work at all levels (unlike in 3e).
Mostly, unless someone works at it. So if it matters (if you can win an encounter with a skill check), skill op will be really strong. But in practice, skill op is rarely strong, so few people do it.
But I agree there will clearly be a problem at high level with skill rolls vs monster defences, since the numbers (bonus vs DC) diverge by around 8 points.
It is worse than this -- bonus vs DC diverges in both directions at once! Heavy charop can result in skill bonuses that dwarf defences, and lack of heavy charop tends to have things go the other way.

It is a flaw.
On #10, I have used Inherent Bonuses for the past 2 years and they completely solve the Crippled Without Items problem; a powerful weapon might give +1 to hit/damage over a mundane one, plus some nice crit bonus dice. For three-Tier play I think Inherent bonuses are vital. I am experimenting with not using them in an upcoming three-level mini-campaign, so that +1 items feel significant, but I would never not use them in extended play.
Ya, but that is more than a bit of a hack. If you where reworking 4e, that kind of clunky mechanic should be avoided.
Re chickenscratch from high [W] attacks - I find the game runs much better with all monster hit points halved; at worst the occasional standard monster drops a bit quickly, but elites and solos feel just right now. I also give minions a Damage Threshold, making very low-damage attacks less effective. Multi-attack still generally beats high-W attack, I have not seen a problem yet (levels 1-10, 2011-12) but I expect it will be an issue by Epic tier ca 2015. :)
I am guessing your players are low-op, because by paragon a daggermaster rogue MC avenger critfisher can pour damage out that just isn't funny (let alone the half-elf twin strike variant).

Half HP means that low-op players experience a game pace more similar to high-op, but high-op with half HP would be pretty silly.

The problem with high-[W] attacks isn't just that they do little damage, it is that they are in exchange for other stuff. And the extra [W] is really crappy.

So it becomes optimal to pick lower damage, higher status effects (like stun), or multi-tap powers, all of which lower the damage per second of your group even if they increase character effectiveness. An extra 10-15 damage at paragon in exchange for a one round stun is a bad deal.
 

S'mon

Legend
Ya, but that is more than a bit of a hack. If you where reworking 4e, that kind of clunky mechanic should be avoided.

I am guessing your players are low-op, because by paragon a daggermaster rogue MC avenger critfisher can pour damage out that just isn't funny (let alone the half-elf twin strike variant).

Inherents - I'm not sure they are clunky; Inherent bonuses enable a 3rd level PC getting a +5 sword to get a +5 power-up whereas a 20th level PC only gets a +1 power-up (plus the crit dice, usually). Personally I like that effect a lot. If magic items only ever gave +1 you would lose that.

Optimisation - my players tend to low op (& no Rogues), but also halving monster hp encourages them to optimise towards damage rather than status effects.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
That is a pretty intense corner case -- a level 1 character with a +5 sword. It falling out of the game is fine, but having any kind of clunk in the mechanics to produce it doesn't seem worth it.

I'd rather the scaling benefit from a magic tool be on some parameter that doesn't break the game. Ie, enhancement bonuses to damage are fine (and having them scale works), but scaling out of control bonuses to-hit should be kept under control. Now, maybe the damage bonus from a magic item should be larger than it is (+6 is pretty small by level 30), but that is a separate issue. The enhancement bonus to damage could even be in the form of more [W] dice.

A +1 sword might deal +1[W] once per round, and a +6 sword might deal +6[W] once per round! (and both would grant +1 to attacks)
 

C4

Explorer
In the meantime, I don't know if you're aware of Upper Krust's work on revising some of the 4e classes, in an attempt to avoid an ever increasing number of powers. http://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/revised-4e-fighter/
Thanks! I can use this to help reverse-engineer power guidelines.

7: Skills where originally designed to keep pace with attacks/defences, but they don't. There are a bunch of legacy systems that presume this, and the game would be much tighter if it somehow held. But because skills are a one-evaluation effect (you roll to succeed, unlike attacks where you roll to succeed then roll to determine effect), you can easily fall into the not-fun part of the exponential power curve of DC vs roll bonus.
Good call! We should start a list of everywhere the skill vs. attack/defense issue crops up. I'm afb right now, and all that comes to mind is Intimidate.
 

C4

Explorer
If anyone is interested in this project's beginnings, I just posted my first thoughts on my blog.

Thanks to everyone who's replied, and if I didn't reply it's not because I don't care. Good gaming!
 

Storminator

First Post
Good call! We should start a list of everywhere the skill vs. attack/defense issue crops up. I'm afb right now, and all that comes to mind is Intimidate.

Breaking a grab is either Athletics vs Fort or Acrobatics vs Ref. Isn't there a Bluff vs Will somewhere? IMC I've given one PC a power that has a Diplomacy vs Will attack.
 

EPGelion

First Post
Forgive me if this has already been touched on, I only skimmed each page here, but something I've really been wanting is the once-promised Class Compendium that was supposed to bring the PHB classes back w/ Essentials tweaks. I know they released some individual pdfs on DDI and that the character builder has already gotten these, but I really want a new complete, finished book, or rather books, that have all the fighters together, all the rogues, all the clerics, etc., and with the glut of errata already implemented for us. Even an e-book of this would be nice. Or several for that matter!

Something else is the Nentir Vale campaign setting. I know this was also being talked about at one point, but got more or less cancelled and all we got was Threats to the Nentir Vale. I'd also love to see this as nice full "book" in electronic format.

These two things more than anything really fundamental to the system are some things I'd wanna see, but, obviously, I'm not holding my breath for. Unless some dedicated fans got together and made these pdf books, of course.
 

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