No Ability Scores, just Modifiers

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, if you are trying to emulate standard rules, this makes sense. Oftentimes a character has an odd abilitiy score that they want to pop up one at 4th level. Retaining this option is probably a good idea.

Except that in this syestem there are no odd ability scores to pop up. That's the beauty of it. Rather than using a scale that uses both odd and even numbers to get an ability mod, you just use the ability mod. So there is no more STR 18 or 19. It is merely STR +4 (or +9 if you start from 0).

In my opinion, you could progress to an 8 level bonus as well. Give them a bonus at 2nd, 6th, 12th, 20th, and every 8 after that. Normally a character gets 5 bonuses by 20th (or 2.5 in mods), but you could raise odd ability scores instead (average of 3 are odd), giving you a total of 4 bonus mods. It works out very well and players might be more receptive when they find out they are going to have two mod boosts by 6th level.

This is a very unusual progression. [Don't take that as critique, just comment] 2 levels, then 4 levels, then 6 levels, then 8 levels forever.

Still though, you keep referring to odd ability scores. In this proposed system there is no ability scores at all! Thus giving 5 ability boosts could take you from a STR +4 to a STR +9 in 20 levels. In 3.5 speak that could be akin to going from an 18 to 28 (technically 29, I suppose). That's a huge jump in power!

I don't know, I think it's something that you would get used to. When you hear someone is five feet tall, you think, "That's pretty short." Players would get used to thinking of 5 as average, just like World of Darkness players get used to thinking of 3 as average (well for humans at least).

Don't hear me wrong. I never said players wouldn't get used to starting from zero instead of -5. I think they would. I'll give most players of RPGs the credit of being flexible and learning new rules. For the most part gamers are adaptable, that's for sure. I was just saying I liked the flavor of having the negative ability mods as a physical reminder of being less than average. But you are right, I think people would adapt to either system. At this point it is a flavor question, not a mechanics question.

 

[Nellisir]

I'd personally go further start them at 0 (instead of -5). Increase DCs by 5, increase base AC to 15 and everything falls into place. And it makes more sense in the long run, especially to a new player.

That's an interesting idea. My concern is how far the change would cascade through the system. It's not just skills and ACs...what about str bonus to damage? 1d8+4 is pretty good; how do you figure 1d8+9 without changing damage dice (1d4+9) or resorting to halving modifiers (1d8+4.5)?

Edit: Actually, halving modifiers doesn't make sense; you'd want to subtract 5 from them. Which is an additional step.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

That's an interesting idea. My concern is how far the change would cascade through the system. It's not just skills and ACs...what about str bonus to damage? 1d8+4 is pretty good; how do you figure 1d8+9 without changing damage dice (1d4+9) or resorting to halving modifiers (1d8+4.5)?

Additionally with respect to damage and Hitpoints, a typical CON might be +7 or +8 if you started from zero. On a abrbarian it might even be a +9. Over 20 levels, that's 140-180 hitpoints!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Additionally with respect to damage and Hitpoints, a typical CON might be +7 or +8 if you started from zero. On a abrbarian it might even be a +9. Over 20 levels, that's 140-180 hitpoints!

Note that this technically answers the damage question above. You deal more damage (because of higher Str mods) but have more hp. Your save DCs are higher, but so are your saves.

I'm not sure it would be perfectly even (damage vs. hp is probably the sole problem, since damage doesn't directly scale with level but Con bonus hp do), but for the mid levels, it would average out to about the same.

 

[reanjr]

Still though, you keep referring to odd ability scores. In this proposed system there is no ability scores at all! Thus giving 5 ability boosts could take you from a STR +4 to a STR +9 in 20 levels. In 3.5 speak that could be akin to going from an 18 to 28 (technically 29, I suppose). That's a huge jump in power!

You misunderstand, I'm comparing it to standard D&D ability scores where there ARE odd ability scores. Take the absolute average human. They are going to have 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 (total mod of +0). Over 20 levels they get 5 boosts. They put three of the boosts into the 11s, and two more of the boosts into what is now a 12. Their final ability scores are 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 10 (total mod of +4). What I proposed is giving 4 boosts over 20 levels then slowing down to 1 every 8 levels to keep with the same power as standard D&D.

2, 4, 6, 8, 8, ..., ad infinitum is an easy progression to remember with no huge changes as you progress and models standard D&D perfectly in the long run.

 

[reanjr]

Edit: Actually, halving modifiers doesn't make sense; you'd want to subtract 5 from them. Which is an additional step.

Oh, you're right, forgot about that one. Subtracting 5 would be easy enough, sure. It's an additional step, but usually only taken during character creation or upon finding a new weapon. It's not something that is usually calculated during battle. Same for Con, as someone mentioned.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

You misunderstand, I'm comparing it to standard D&D ability scores where there ARE odd ability scores. Take the absolute average human. They are going to have 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 (total mod of +0). Over 20 levels they get 5 boosts. They put three of the boosts into the 11s, and two more of the boosts into what is now a 12. Their final ability scores are 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 10 (total mod of +4). What I proposed is giving 4 boosts over 20 levels then slowing down to 1 every 8 levels to keep with the same power as standard D&D.

2, 4, 6, 8, 8, ..., ad infinitum is an easy progression to remember with no huge changes as you progress and models standard D&D perfectly in the long run.

Right. But what I was saying is that they way that you suggest giving the bonuses will give 5 bonuses to the ability modifiers, which is rather significant. In the current system they only get 5 bonuses to ability which would only convert to 5 bonuses to ability scores if the player started with 5 odd scores and the player bumped each of them! [A rarity, if you ask me] I guess that is what I was saying. By using ability modifiers and not ability scores, the frequency of bonuses should be about halved as well - or as close as you can get. For example, the rule of six that the OP posted.

 

[reanjr]

Right. But what I was saying is that they way that you suggest giving the bonuses will give 5 bonuses to the ability modifiers, which is rather significant. In the current system they only get 5 bonuses to ability which would only convert to 5 bonuses to ability scores if the player started with 5 odd scores and the player bumped each of them! [A rarity, if you ask me] I guess that is what I was saying. By using ability modifiers and not ability scores, the frequency of bonuses should be about halved as well - or as close as you can get. For example, the rule of six that the OP posted.

I suggested bonuses at 2, 6, 12, 20. Only four modifier bonuses. Which is the same a 5 ability score bonuses optimally applied to 3 odd and 3 even ability scores.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Yes, then. Right you are. When I looked up a previous post I say the one with progression 2,4,6,8,8 and not the one about actual levels. Simple mistake, but you are correct.

At this rate, I would guess however that 3 would still be more in line. This type of system comes out of more of a point-buy mentality than a standard rolling mentality. The players most-likely - but not always, of course - would be used to increasing their modifier at 8, and 16. Some may increase a single odd, which would make for three adjustments.

That's why I argued for a 6, 12, 18. Compared to a point-buy mentalit of a normal 8, 16 and perhaps one other thrown in there this seems fair.

I do understand what you are saying about three odd and three even stats and why you suggest four boosts. To a traditional point-buyer like myself, though, this still seems large.

 

[Nellisir]

I do understand what you are saying about three odd and three even stats and why you suggest four boosts. To a traditional point-buyer like myself, though, this still seems large.

It's slightly more than usual, but really not that bad. The 4th modifier won't be until very high levels, so you're talking about archmages and hierophant priests. I've seen suggestions (Unearthed Arcana or the Advanced Gamemasters Guide) for a feat OR an ability boost every level. That's a little over the top for my taste.