No Dice <Nerd Rage>

[Raven Crowking]

@ Mallus:

I am not necessarily using the adventures exactly as written. Some materials from the free Dungeons that WotC made available early on in 4e, and KotS. I find WotC adventures (3e or 4e) are best used by breaking them down into individual components (i.e., lairs).


RC

 

[Shazman]

A tough choice, but a great many people find the current versions of them to be the best the magazines have been in ages - with not just decent content, but content that is just as usable in a game as in any printed book.

Yeah, I don't think these were ever truly the 'insults' some felt they were...




You know, just like they did through the life of 3rd Edition. I'm not a fan of the corporate culture behind such turnover, but I don't think it is reasonable to consider it a bad business decision or a sign of the company doing poorly. They regularly release employees and bring in new ones when they need to amp up production - that's how the company works. I don't like it, but it also doesn't fit in this list.




Yeah, this just isn't true. Combats have the potential to go long, but they also avoid a lot of the pitsteps that slowed down combats in the last edition. And they have continued to demonstrate a willingness to try and provide options to fix what issues some people have.



I again disagree with their decision to do so, but don't think it was malicious, nor do I think we have the data to judge whether it was a terrible business decision or not.



1-2% of a book received errata doesn't "invalidate" the book. An update every other month, posted freely on their website and incorporated into the character builder, is not "nearly impossible to keep up with."

Some don't like the errata - I think it is fantastic, and many agree that WotC being willing to work to keep the game balanced is a genuinely good decision for the company to make.

To this day, I still miss getting Dungeon and Dragon in my mailbox

You mean like putting such wonderful insights as "If you use profession skills in your game, your game probably isn't as fun as it should be." in print, saying things like you can skake you fist at the cluds (4E) bu they are still coming, portraying players of 3.0/3.5 as too incompetent to even use an index or have a basic grasp of the rules in their 2007 Gen COn youtube video, or having a dragon "poop" on detractors of 4E in a Penny Arcade cartoon?

I may be wrong, but the 4E layoffs seem to be more regular and drastic.

When I can consistantly participate in Pathfinder games that have three to four encounters in the same time frame it would take to resolve one 4E encounter, I have to conclude that the designers of 4E really messed up somewhere.

The "rules updates" (both the amount and nature of them) have caused many people I know to completly stop buying WOtC's books and let their DDI subscriptions lapse. It definitely is costing them business. They should do some QA and try to get decent rules the first time around.

 

[hutchback]

I personally don't think WotC is currently concerning themselves with other RPG publishers in regards to many if any of their business decisions. I don't think they even regard other publishers them as competition at all. Perhaps they have in the past, but it would not seem to be the case now.

In my opinion, WotC's recent direction shows that they consider the biggest threat to their profitability is the extinction of table-top rpgs altogether. They are competing with computers, game consoles and television programming. Some of the largest industries in the world are spending billions of dollars to keep you away from the game table and firmly placed in front of your TV/monitor where they can barrage you with advertising and immediately available (for a price) content.

WotC seems to recognize this and are making adjustments accordingly.

Competing outside of one's industry is nothing new. I used to work for one the the world's largest and most successful Harley-Davidson dealerships. We had guys who came into the dealership swearing they would never ride a new Harley, or guys who would never ride one older that the 80's, even guys who would never ride a Harley at all. Of course we had guys who would regularly come in an claim they would never ride anything but a Harley. Do you know what all these guys had in common? They almost never bought anything. They all just had an ax to grind. Sound familiar?

We didn't worry about Honda, Yamaha, Victory or any other motorcycle manufacturer. We didn't even concern ourselves with other Harley dealerships. Our competition was pools, decks, RVs, and summer homes. Our solution? Increase ridership. Teach people how to ride, hold organized rides, make the dealership a destinantion that riders want to go to. Riders created by these initiatives became understandably loyal patrons and came back bringing their friends. Sound familiar?

All those guys I described earlier? They hated us. Said we were ruining what it means to be a biker. That we were tricking people. Squeezing out the little bike shops. Getting that sense of De ja vu yet?

I don't work there anymore, but they are still going strong and you know what else? The other bike shops and manufacturers and starting to march to the same beat (to be fair some of them were already). The industry has learned that they aren't competing for each other's customers. They are trying to ensure they have customers at all. When you are vying for people's disposable income and limited leisure time you are most likely in a niche industry. This means that you are competing with dozens of other niche industries.

Does WotC care about you, a passionate and dedicated gamer? It's unlikely. Passion is great but it is also fickle and tempestuous. One's passions can create preconceived notions and sometimes misconceptions. Both of which are far too costly to combat.

I admire the direction that WotC is taking, if there is anything lasting to be made from this hobby, I believe they are on the right track to finding it. Are they perfect? No. Do they make some facepalm worthy decisions? Sure. Are they evil incarnate bent on conquering the world through the perversion of RPGs or at least hellbent on ruining your day? Of course not.

I have some thoughts on PDFs, but this post is already far too long.

 

[renau1g]

To this day, I still miss getting Dungeon and Dragon in my mailbox

You mean like putting such wonderful insights as "If you use profession skills in your game, your game probably isn't as fun as it should be." in print, saying things like you can skake you fist at the cluds (4E) bu they are still coming, portraying players of 3.0/3.5 as too incompetent to even use an index or have a basic grasp of the rules in their 2007 Gen COn youtube video, or having a dragon "poop" on detractors of 4E in a Penny Arcade cartoon?

I may be wrong, but the 4E layoffs seem to be more regular and drastic.

When I can consistantly participate in Pathfinder games that have three to four encounters in the same time frame it would take to resolve one 4E encounter, I have to conclude that the designers of 4E really messed up somewhere.

The "rules updates" (both the amount and nature of them) have caused many people I know to completly stop buying WOtC's books and let their DDI subscriptions lapse. It definitely is costing them business. They should do some QA and try to get decent rules the first time around.

I also liked getting the magazine in the mailbox as I read it cover to cover, however I rarely used what was in those magazines for my PCs. Now with DDI I DO use what's in there as I don't need to flip through dozens of magazines to find the feat I want, it's in the DDI.

Also, when you mention pathfinder combats, please note a combat with a single monster isn't the same as a combat in 4e, with usually at least three or more monsters. Here's a couple examples from the excellent Kingmaker AP from Paizo.

Spoiler

Encounter area H from Stolen Land: 1 giant trapdoor spider
Area G from same Module: 4 kobolds (4 hp each)
Area R4 same module: 1 Giant Whiptail Centipede

Now let's compare Seekers of Ashen Crown from 4e Eberron

Spoiler

Encounter 4: 1 corruption corpse, 2 grave drakes, 3 ancient tomb motes, 1 Sharn kruthik.
Encounter 8: 1 hive lord, 1 Sharn kruthik, 2 kruthik swarms, 2 hatchlings

Just 1 of those encounters has as many creatures (or more) than the three listed from Kingmaker. So you are really comparing apples to oranges. 4e combats tend to be longer, because they involve more creatures. There's few (if any) one enemy combats, because even solos are boring. I find Pathfinder combats too short, I mean many times the combat's resolved before I even get to attack, or they last 1.5 rounds many times.

Are you in quality assurance? Do you know how they test things? They do test and do sample, but the sample size is obviously small (this is true in any industry). By your expectation there should never be any defective products ever, in any industry, for any reason. Maybe you should look at it as "hey, they caught a problem and they are attempting to rectify an error to improve my enjoyment of the game, at no additional cost to me". Instead you choose the "OMG ROZR my books are worthless because two feats were changed!" If you want, do what we do, keep a binder of the errata and have a sticky or a star on the offending page in the book with a note to see errata binder. Simple, easy. As 3.5e fans have no issues with using indexes (as you mentioned above) this should be no problem.

 

[Crothian]

Let's see

If they only made 9 mistakes in the I don't know how many years they have been in business they are doing awesome!

1) killing the print editions of dungeon and dragon

Magazines have been slowly dying. The PDf versions that we have now are still awesome. I think this is a win.

2) lots of thinly veiled insults at previous editions, fans of previous editions, and certain playstyles in the hype leading up to 4E

I didn't see this. I still play 3e and I talk to Wizards people and they don't seem to m ind that I do. Don't confuse marketing with insults. That might be the issue.

3) hyping a product that will never be (virtual table top)

Sometimes things don't work out. While it sounded cool I can't say I'm missing not having it.

4) the GSL

I'm not sure its a mistake. I think it is doing exactly what they wanted.

5) laying off D&D employees every six months even though 4E is supposedly doing great

Businesses cut back even ones in the black. 4e doing great can mean a lot of things and there is a lot of behind the scenes decision making that goes into hiring and firing personal.

6) designing the newest edition around an excruciatingly slow combat system that makes playing the game almost unfeasible

That's just your opinion and nit a mistake. 4e works fine for plenty of groups. Not for everyone sure but no game does.

7) stopping legal sales of all pdfs

Again, maybe a mistake we don't know all the facts though.

8) an astonishing amount of errata and rules updates that invalidates physical books very quickly and is nearly impossible to keep up with

Hasn't been that bad in my mind and with the DDI it is cake work.

9) killing DDM which has resulted in nearly killing the entire minis line

Minis are still being made, not sure how it is almost dead.

 

[Scribble]

As far as the errata... I think really the only reason it's "more" this time around is because it's easier for them to get it out, and they've made it a priority.

Not putting it out, isn't synonymous with doesn't need it.


As for "insults..."

If you were insulted, you were insulted... But it was 2 years ago, and related to a game.

I say it's time to move on.

 

[Festivus]

#1 I don't read the new dungeon and dragon magazines as much as I did the print ones, partly because the writing isn't the people I liked when Paizo had the helm, and partly because I can't read it on the potty, but it's integration into the tools that we have makes it very clearly something I use in my games. I agree that print is dying in all forms, this was probably the only way to keep the magazines alive.

#2 Insults? I really don't recall these, but perhaps I have rose colored glasses on.

#3 I still have hope for a VTT product, and I bet it gets developed or partnered with a current VTT developer at some point. GenCon isn't far off... we shall see.

#4 While at first I didn't like the GSL, I only had to look at my bookshelf full of crap and decide that perhaps it's not a bad thing to protect their game engine as best they can for their own profit and keep the game system clean. It's not unlike the app store is it?

I call #5 maximizing profits... yeah it's corporate scum tactics but the bottom line is there is a bottom line. If I were a shareholder (and I probably am via some mutual fund), then my expectation would be to cut the unneeded people as soon as they were no longer needed, hire them back as consultants if needed (and that seems to be a trend in business these days)

#6 I don't find combat overly slow in 4E... if anything it's predictable and really helps to plan the game. We had a combat the other night it was an hour and a half long and involved a huge green dragon, plus 4 vampire spawn and a vampire. It was a lot of fun, but took a long time to get done. (did I mention that was a pathfinder game?)

#7 I don't miss PDFs since I wouldn't use them. I like the insider tools as a better replacement for a PDF.

#8 I appreciate the fact that they care enough to errata the books... and I don't mind it. There isn't that many changes to the basics of the game... most of the changes are to the powers, magic items and monsters.

#9 Minis are still around, and probably will be as long as it makes sense. I don't buy them any more as it's silly to have more than the few thousand I have. I like the pogs they are coming out with, that will be nice, particularly since they are cheaper and newer players and DMs can run their games for less money.

 

[Umbran]

"More dumb?" I think stifling discussion of a bad result from a decision based on not having complete accounting information ranks up there.

If what you see is an attempt to stifle, you have not grokked in fullness.

There is a major difference in the character of discussions between those who speak as if they know Teh Trvth, and those who admit they don't.

In the former, observers not taking part who don't have a position may weigh the two sides and come to conclusions; the speakers themselves typically end the discussion on the same position they started, at the same pole, having publicly accepted few points that don't agree with their starting thesis.

In the latter, I find the conversation and speakers more open to new ideas, and the people involved in the speaking more apt to accept things that don't go along with the thoughts they start the conversation with. And, perhaps more importantly, I think the latter form generates more new ideas as part of the process than the former.

I find the latter more constructive than the former in many instances.

It implies that those who have access to the books definitely look at them, factor them into a decision, and cannot have make a bad decision because of that knowledge.

No, it doesn't. It merely admits that we don't know the values involved, so that we cannot speak to them concretely.

It ignores the obvious downside of the result.

Again, no, it merely admits that we don't know all the up or down sides. It admits that our own personal downside ("I don't get the specific product I personally want," for example) may from another person's perspective be outweighed by another valid point of which we are not currently aware.

It presumes that someone should always agree with the decisions of people who have more information regardless of the outcome of a decision.

No. It presumes that there may be concerns other than the ones we care about, of which we may be at least partially ignorant. It accepts that the outcomes we want may not be the same as the outcomes that are good for another. It admits that "bad result" is not objective truth for all. Bad for me may be good (or worse, or neutral) for someone else.

 

[renau1g]

#1 I don't read the new dungeon and dragon magazines as much as I did the print ones, partly because the writing isn't the people I liked when Paizo had the helm, and partly because I can't read it on the potty, but it's integration into the tools that we have makes it very clearly something I use in my games. I agree that print is dying in all forms, this was probably the only way to keep the magazines alive.

Isn't that what Ipad's are for? I don't have one, but I assume they can read PDF's right? I mean they got apps

Totally unrelated but hilarious (IMO) video

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40AthIcKMbE"]YouTube- Jake and Amir: iPad[/ame]

 

[Festivus]

Isn't that what Ipad's are for? I don't have one, but I assume they can read PDF's right? I mean they got apps

I am too poor for an ipad, but yeah, that would be ideal.