No Dice <Nerd Rage>

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Hussar said:
While I might believe a lot of things about WOTC, deliberately choosing to not make money from gamers is not something I'll buy into.

On this issue, while I'd like to give WotC credit, I would also readily believe that choosing to not make money is something that they would do.

Mostly, I confess, this is guilt by association. Companies have done far, far, far, more idiotic things in the berserker rush to stop rampant internet copyright infringement then to just not sell some PDF's.

MPAA. Viacom. RIAA. Canada's C-32. Large swaths of the US's DMCA. ACTA.

Not selling PDF's to dodge piracy is actually one of the more sane responses (even if it's still ultimately ineffective).
 

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Gee, wiz, that sure sounds like alot! But not really. This sounds like a tiny fraction of the effort it takes to produce even one physical copy of a book.
Umbran's suggestion about limited manpower is good, except that this isn't a case where WotC could do only one or the other.
The profit margin of PDF sales is higher than dead-tree copies. Period. I have to assume their removal wasn't about the profit they might or might not have provided, it was some convoluted and stupid market strategy to prop DDI and the newest edition.
Higher profit margin or not, you're still presuming that WotC's revenue from selling PDFs was significant enough to outweigh the fixed costs of doing so. Since WotC has still not resumed selling PDFs, the most logical explanation is that it isn't profitable for them to do so. Therefore, I have to ask, why is your "logic" leaping (at the point I've underlined above) to the assumption that WotC isn't interested in making a profit?

Also, in your OP, you said you don't want this to become a discussion about 4E. That said, why the veiled attack on D&DI and 4E, by suggesting that they need to be "propped" (up?).

Um, it has what, a couple dozen salaried employees? At best? I may not run a business of such a size, but I am employed within one that dwarfs it. And yes, it's not a publishing company, but I think just waving your hands around and saying "it's a business!" is a copout. It's not like WotC is some mega-corp with inscrutable goals. It's a small publishing company.
...So, you're saying that smaller* (ie: medium-sized) companies don't need to behave as businesses?

Why stop selling old products in the first place? Why take the stance that old sales necessarily negatively effect new ones? Is there any evidence that Fallout 2 is stopping people from buying Fallout 3?
Well, to make one suggestion, WotC likely isn't interested in splitting any of its resources to support both its newest product line and an obsolete product line still being directly supported by its competitors. I'm speculating here, of course.

It's worth pointing out that once Fallout 3 was released, it's unlikely that many new copies of Fallout 2 were still being produced. Maybe that will change in the future, but who knows?

The front end costs of selling older editions material have already been payed. The books have been produced, the PDFs have been made. And even with 4th edition, the books are printer proofs before they are hard copies.
I'll point out, too, I was an avid MtG player before WotC's actions, and now I don't buy them.
Goody. I can appreciate you "voting with your dollars", but I don't think your reasons for not wanting to support WotC are very legit.

I'm not going to buy that simply because it's a business, WotC's decisions can't be questioned or contradicted, nor do I believe that doing so requires a PHD and 5 years of industry experience.:hmm: That's a double standard that doesn't apply to incensed customers, apparently.
You're right, anyone is entitled to question WotC's decisions. That said, most of the reasons you've offered so far don't appear to hold much water -- only nerdrage.

Upthread, I pointed out that "publisher wars" are the kid siblings of edition wars. Since you don't want to buy anything from WotC, but you also want to tell everybody about it, I strongly suspect you're looking to start a "publisher war" -- in other words, you're just looking to drum up hatred for WotC. (Trying to generate hatred against Paizo would be just as bad.)

So, I'll just reiterate: I don't like what WotC has done and will not buy their product until their policies change.
Great! So don't, then. ...But why are you still telling us about it? If that was all there is to it, we wouldn't be on seven pages of discussion by now.
 

On this issue, while I'd like to give WotC credit, I would also readily believe that choosing to not make money is something that they would do.

KM, with respect, disagreeing with you on what's the best tactic in the long term does not equate to willfully choosing to not make money. If it were otherwise, I'd think you'd be spending a lot more time on your private tropical island, and a lot less time hanging around with schlubs like us :p

The future, last I checked, was not known in detail to mankind. There's too many variables, and always guesswork involved. They made their guess. You're free to think they guessed wrong - but you're just guessing, too.
 

Since WotC wasn't honest and forthright about why they did what they did, I'll assume that leaving us in the dark was better for their public image than the alternative.

Now you're calling them liars? What evidence do you have for this? Insider information of some kind? Or is this just more invective?

Preemptive counter: piracy wasn't a legitimate reason. Millions of products are pirated every day without having their IP stripped, it's not a legitimate reason to pull PDFs.

Sure it is. And it certainly isn't for you to say what a legitimate reason is or is not for a company that, apparently, you have a lot of misconceptions about ("couple dozen employees", I'm looking at you).

So, my choice is to boycott a company that isn't honest and engages in policies I disagree with.

It's funny how much people throw around words like "honesty" when they mean "I don't like it".

Seriously- here's a clue: EVERYTHING a company does costs money; why would they spend that money on stuff that competes with their "core products"? Why would they divert resources from the stuff that makes them money to please a few people that spend their online time bitching about them? It's like in the 80s when TSR tried to please all the anti-D&D groups by castrating the game. They were appealing to people that weren't buying their product anyway. What is the point?

For not edition warring, you sure are throwing a lot of hate at WotC and 4e.

By all means, boycott WotC and complain bitterly all you like about ow THEY ARE ALLL LAIRS AND THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE OLDE SCHOOL GAMERSZ!!1! But really, don't be surprised to find that they aren't catering to you.\
 

Umbran said:
KM, with respect, disagreeing with you on what's the best tactic in the long term does not equate to willfully choosing to not make money.

Ah, well, what I was more getting at was that I am not surprised that companies make dumb decisions in pursuit of the goal of preventing copyright infringement. So if the PDF takedown was mostly about copyright infringement, I could see WotC easily deciding to forgo the small profit that PDFs might bring in, in exchange for doing something, anything, whatever it can, about someone downloading their books without paying for them.

If the reason was predominantly about the marginal costs and small income (or whatever) in PDFs, and not about copyright infringement, then whatever. It was probably a smart business decision, and results in less expenses, and only irks a minority, so not a bad choice.

But since, as far as I know, WotC hasn't come out and said clearly why they did it, any one bit of rampant speculation is almost as good as any other. Maybe it was simple accounting. Maybe it was paranoid copyright enforcement. Maybe it was because they had an even better idea that disappeared somewhere along the way along with the Vitual Table Top and Gleemax. Maybe they wanted to kill competition from other editions.

I find some of those ideas more plausible than others, but they're all pretty remotely plausible.

I was just pointing out that giving up a source of revenue isn't as insane as it may otherwise sound, if the motive from HQ is to stop copyright infringement. Because for some reason, when someone mentions making a possible free copy of your book (or CD or movie or TV show), logic goes out the window and it suddenly everyone gets crazy. Not selling PDF's for that reason is still crazy, IMO, but it's one of the least crazy ideas in that at least it doesn't hurt most people too much.
 

Gee, wiz, that sure sounds like alot! But not really.


The bulk of that was already done the first time the old material was made available as PDFs, and done by the distribtuion channel, as I was one of the people (there might have been six or ten of us recruited by James at RPGNow, IIRC) who helped get the PDF's stats and information up on RPGNow. Although the PDFs are no longer available, I would be surprised if the RPGnowers weren't smart enough to back up the old files in case WotC upper management changed hands and then reversed their decision on selling the older PDFs.


The point is that the decision on PDFs was more likly a business decision based on cost-benefit ratios. It was less likely a personal decision made to snub the fans of older editions.


Not either, since they reported at the time that it was a decision based on piracy. You are acting like someone is claiming WotC wanted to snub fans as opposed to having just made a poor decision that had the result of angering fans. (I personally take them at their word they they are interested in reaching out to fans old and new.) I think your mischaracterization is meant to marginalize some of the people with views opposed to yours and I would like you to stop that, please. I think as people who game together several times a year for a half dozen years or so now, you and I can be a bit more civil to one another than that. If you feel I have impugned your character or mischaracterized your posts in a similar fashion, please just say so and you will have an apology forthcoming.



(I'll leave the "WOTC, deliberately choosing to not make money from gamers is not something I'll buy into" and "I think some fans have been written off by WOTC" camps to argue those points with one another.)
 
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But since, as far as I know, WotC hasn't come out and said clearly why they did it, any one bit of rampant speculation is almost as good as any other. Maybe it was simple accounting. Maybe it was paranoid copyright enforcement. Maybe it was because they had an even better idea that disappeared somewhere along the way along with the Vitual Table Top and Gleemax. Maybe they wanted to kill competition from other editions.

Piracy seems to be their often mentioned reason.

WotC Ends PDF Download Sales Citing Piracy
 


Ah, well, what I was more getting at was that I am not surprised that companies make dumb decisions in pursuit of the goal of preventing copyright infringement.

Well, what I was getting at was that we don't know it was dumb. Just 'cause we think it was probably dumb, doesn't make it so.

Put it this way - what's more dumb: Their decision to pull pdfs, or us thinking we know the value of their business decisions without seeing the balance sheets?
 

Well, what i was getting at was that we don't know it was dumb. Just 'cause we think it was probably dumb, doesn't make it so.

Put it this way - what's more dumb: Their decision to pull pdfs, or us thinking we know the value of their business decisions without seeing the balance sheets?
Quoted for truth.
 

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