D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Remathilis]

Ok I think I lost the point here somewhere along the way, please restate the point/request unless I have it right below:

Are you saying that you can't have a successful 5e game that doesn't have all the core 5e classes, and that's why you couldn't do a modern Dark Sun because you'd have to cut out a lot of the core 5e classes and fantasy tropes, rather than "here are ways that you can fit everything in the phb into this setting, even though it really shouldn't belong?"

Because I think that I might know of a couple different Kickstarters that did this, to different degrees, but I want to make sure I'm understanding the point first [emoji38]

What I would be looking to see is:
A fantasy RPG setting
That's 5e/D&D compatible
That isn't based on an existing media IP
And doesn't have a place for the twelve PHB class archetypes in it.

Because most of the ones I'm familiar with do. I haven't seen one which doesn't have clerics or has completely redesigned the warlock or who replaced the sorcerer with an alchemist or something. I'm sure there are some, but most of the big ones I'm familiar with kept the barbarian to wizard list and added.

Which is why I asked if there are any 3pp settings that pull the Dark Sun trick of having only some of the PHB archetypes but not all. The only ones I could think of are either not in the genre, tied to a non-D&D based IP, or both. If it's the place where 3pp can shine by redefining the class list, where are they?

 

[Minigiant]

What I would be looking to see is:
A fantasy RPG setting
That's 5e/D&D compatible
That isn't based on an existing media IP
And doesn't have a place for the twelve PHB class archetypes in it.

Can't think of any.


Only see this with OSR products and only on Kickstarters.

Which is my point. No one can afford to traditional "put up the money and sell the books later to recoup" if you cut modern races, classes and their subs.

No one but WOTC who wont.

 

[Scribe]

What I would be looking to see is:
A fantasy RPG setting
That's 5e/D&D compatible
That isn't based on an existing media IP
And doesn't have a place for the twelve PHB class archetypes in it.

This is tough I think.

I can drop species, I actually prefer Goblins to Gnomes for example, but Classes? All of them have a place, if you are aiming to stay 5e aligned, because of the base assumptions in those classes.

 

[Hussar]

Primeval Thule did suggest that Paladins weren't a good fit, but, didn't outright ban them.

But, yeah, I gotta admit, if it's a D&D setting, then it's pretty much guaranteed to use all the classes.

 

[Yaarel]

Primeval Thule did suggest that Paladins weren't a good fit, but, didn't outright ban them.

A 5e Dark Sun Players Handbook, can list the class options that are canonical in 2e Dark Sun: Fighter, Rogue, Psion, Wizard, Druid, Cleric (nontheistic elementalist worldview), and whatever Templar is. The class and subclass descriptions are setting-specific and explain in detail how they function on planet Athas. Some of these subclasses are new, and any setting can borrow from them, like from Tashas.

A page or so can mention class options that are noncanonical. Some classes make sense on Athas, like Barbarbian. Some were specificaly banned, like Paladin. The page can briefly suggest how to include them, and a DM can decide whether or not.

The main issue is 5e deletes the normalization of slavery.

During the Spelljammer setting, 5e designers literally threw the planet Athas into a black hole. An inhouse playtesting cried foul, and they walked it back − and lampshaded the end of Dark Sun. I am doubtful about ever seeing WotC do Dark Sun again. They definitely dont want an indy publisher to do a slavery Dark Sun.

Yet, it is easy to remove slavery because of the canonical Age of Heroism. And Dark Sun does many things right, like gender egalitarianism, environmental tropes, and so on.

 

[Distracted DM]

What I would be looking to see is:
A fantasy RPG setting
That's 5e/D&D compatible
That isn't based on an existing media IP
And doesn't have a place for the twelve PHB class archetypes in it.

Because most of the ones I'm familiar with do. I haven't seen one which doesn't have clerics or has completely redesigned the warlock or who replaced the sorcerer with an alchemist or something. I'm sure there are some, but most of the big ones I'm familiar with kept the barbarian to wizard list and added.

Which is why I asked if there are any 3pp settings that pull the Dark Sun trick of having only some of the PHB archetypes but not all. The only ones I could think of are either not in the genre, tied to a non-D&D based IP, or both. If it's the place where 3pp can shine by redefining the class list, where are they?

Oh wait, ok so you want fantasy 5e but with NO 5e classes in it. Not "there isn't a place for paladins, sorcerers, rangers and clerics in this setting," you don't want ANY of the standard DnD classes?

Hm. That's a thinker.
Why do you want that? To get away from the DnD legacy entirely but stay fantasy? Reinvent the wheel?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Is'it really ironic? This sounds like a "Rajaat's syndrome". Rajaat is the main antagonist of DS. He wanted the return of the blue age but their actions caused the end of the green age and the begining of the age of the sorcerer-kings. Because of him Athas became much worse and became a hell on the earth.

And WotC has to choose what happened with other planets within Crimson Sphere/Athaspace. Maybe a lot of innocent people could be evacuated while the cleasing war, and even Rajaat's champions allowed this because it would be faster and easier for their plans. Or the wildspaces next to Athaspaces could be explored and settled by natives from Athas.

And if there are rules for the life-shaper technology is available then others players will want to use in ther Spelljammer campaigns, for example.

And maybe there is a plan to continue the metaplot but when they talk with a videogame studio or a cinematographic producer, then the screenwritters could add new ideas and then it had to start from zero again.

There aren't orcs in DS but there are tareks. Where do you believe their origin from?

And the underground is totally unexplored, we could find surprises style Jule Verne's "Journey to the center of the Earth".

 

[Mind of tempest]

8/10 the cutters don't want to replace the cuttees with new stuff.

depends on why you are cutting it, if you cutting the idea of exp speed bumps and aberrations to focus on everyone is a person and focusing on a different monster category that makes sense.
or to simply use negative space in the setting, no elves in the woods makes every woodland far more natively hostile.

This is tough I think.

I can drop species, I actually prefer Goblins to Gnomes for example, but Classes? All of them have a place, if you are aiming to stay 5e aligned, because of the base assumptions in those classes.

classes have to be replaced if cut, cut cleric and paladin and something has to take their place or the game's math stops working fast.
I remove all gnomes, orcs and halflings and the game keeps moving fine.

A 5e Dark Sun Players Handbook, can list the class options that are canonical in 2e Dark Sun: Fighter, Rogue, Psion, Wizard, Druid, Cleric (nontheistic elementalist worldview), and whatever Templar is. The class and subclass descriptions are setting-specific and explain in detail how they function on planet Athas. Some of these subclasses are new, and any setting can borrow from them, like from Tashas.

A page or so can mention class options that are noncanonical. Some classes make sense on Athas, like Barbarbian. Some were specificaly banned, like Paladin. The page can briefly suggest how to include them, and a DM can decide whether or not.

The main issue is 5e deletes the normalization of slavery.

During the Spelljammer setting, 5e designers literally threw the planet Athas into a black hole. An inhouse playtesting cried foul, and they walked it back − and lampshaded the end of Dark Sun. I am doubtful about ever seeing WotC do Dark Sun again. They definitely dont want an indy publisher to do a slavery Dark Sun.

Yet, it is easy to remove slavery because of the canonical Age of Heroism. And Dark Sun does many things right, like gender egalitarianism, environmental tropes, and so on.

hence to me a successor would do far better to take what can survive from it to something that can live.

Oh wait, ok so you want fantasy 5e but with NO 5e classes in it. Not "there isn't a place for paladins, sorcerers, rangers and clerics in this setting," you don't want ANY of the standard DnD classes?

Hm. That's a thinker.
Why do you want that? To get away from the DnD legacy entirely but stay fantasy? Reinvent the wheel?

how would anyone get rid of Fighter and Rogue that would be insanely difficult.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What I would be looking to see is:
A fantasy RPG setting
That's 5e/D&D compatible
That isn't based on an existing media IP
And doesn't have a place for the twelve PHB class archetypes in it.

Because most of the ones I'm familiar with do. I haven't seen one which doesn't have clerics or has completely redesigned the warlock or who replaced the sorcerer with an alchemist or something. I'm sure there are some, but most of the big ones I'm familiar with kept the barbarian to wizard list and added.

Which is why I asked if there are any 3pp settings that pull the Dark Sun trick of having only some of the PHB archetypes but not all. The only ones I could think of are either not in the genre, tied to a non-D&D based IP, or both. If it's the place where 3pp can shine by redefining the class list, where are they?

so you're asking about a setting that defines itself primarilly by the absence of certain standard fantasy classes? rather than the addition of them and how that affects the world/what about the world caused those classes to not occur?

a world without clerics and paladins says something about the divinity of that setting
a world without pure martials says something about the omnipresence of magic in that setting
a world without druid, ranger and barbarian says something about the wilderness or lack thereof in the setting

these are all interesting worlds to explore and discover the stories of, but they can't properly exist if all 12 of the baseline classes perpetually exist in all settings.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I wonder if the right option would be a spiritual succesor where the Athasian tablelands would be placed as a spin-off. How? The setting would be about the Crimson Sphere/Athasian where the Athasian Tablelands would the "no enter room", isolated within a demiplane. Let's say the Athasian Tablelands would be like a bunker within an island what suffers a zombie apocalypse, and the contact with the outer space is lost, and too dangerous to be recovered.

Maybe there is an alternate Athas where the green age returned, because the king-sorcerer chose to create a demiplane, working this like a cousin of Ravenloft.