No full attack option?

[Nebulous]

Since each weapon is getting special moves and abilities relating to each weapon, then I don't expect the greatsword to stay the same relatively. The longsword gets its multiattack, the greatsword gets ???

If they can somehow, SOMEHOW, make a dagger a cooler, more useful weapon, i will be happy. As is, that 1d4 damage is pretty much useless at higher levels. Adding tricks and maneuvers to a dagger would be wonderful.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Actually, 1 attack per round makes the combat longer and not faster.
You need at least one attack roll to kill one monster, you can't make the combat faster than that.
Assuming they are increasing the number of monsters per encounter and more monsters=more attacks to win the combat, if they decrease the number of attacks characters can make per round, they are doubling/doubling the combat time. So I don't think they are reducing the number of attacks per round, but making multiple attacks a better option in the combat.

Not really. Unless we are talking about IN game time, then you are right. It might take 4 rounds for a combat to end since you only get one attack per round. However, you might finish the 4 rounds in the time it took to finish one using the old system.

Compare: "My attack roll is always +23, I roll 7 plus 23 is 30, that hits? Good, I do 10 damage." (average time to end of turn: 10 seconds)

To: "My first attack is at +23. I roll a 7. That's 30. That hits? Good. It does 10 damage. Alright, my second attack is at...umm...plus....umm...18...sorry, my brain isn't working. Ok, so...18 plus...which one of these is my second attack again? Oh, right...the blue one. 13. Ok, so plus...what did I say again? Yes, yeah...I have it written on my sheet, sorry, I just couldn't find the number. Sorry I'm taking so long. Where was I? Right...13 plus 18 is 31, does that hit? Oh, right, of course it hits, my first attack was a 30 and it hit. Yeah, get off my case. I just forgot that I rolled 30 on the first attack. At any rate, I do 8 damage. Now my third attack...." (average time to end of turn: 5 minutes)

And yes, I've had this conversation with the people in my group...nearly every second round. Sometimes EVERY round.

Parties who are only taking one attack per round would likely take less (our of game) time to defeat the same number of enemies even though they are making less attacks per round.

Even multiple attacks the way they are done in SWSE are faster. You only make multiple attacks per round if you are facing easy enemies and want to hit more than one of them in the same round. And your attack bonuses on all your attacks are the same. So if you have +23 to hit and want to take 2 attacks with a feat, you make 2 rolls at +18. No need to figure out which is the first and which is the second.

 

[sidonunspa]

To: "My first attack is at +23. I roll a 7. That's 30. That hits? Good. It does 10 damage. Alright, my second attack is at...umm...plus....umm...18...sorry, my brain isn't working. Ok, so...18 plus...which one of these is my second attack again? Oh, right...the blue one. 13. Ok, so plus...what did I say again? Yes, yeah...I have it written on my sheet, sorry, I just couldn't find the number. Sorry I'm taking so long. Where was I? Right...13 plus 18 is 31, does that hit? Oh, right, of course it hits, my first attack was a 30 and it hit. Yeah, get off my case. I just forgot that I rolled 30 on the first attack. At any rate, I do 8 damage. Now my third attack...." (average time to end of turn: 5 minutes)
.

OMG I would kill someone like that... just write all the bonuses on the sheet... if someone casts a buff spell.. write all your attacks on the same scrap paper you track hit points on..

if you look down and see +15/+15/+12/+12/+7/+7 you know what your attacks are...

Also get d20s of different colors and damage dice that match them.. roll all the dice at once... for me Glow-in-the dark green and yellow are 1st attacks, and so on...

Also I hate having one roll.. because it's only one chance to hit or miss.. with more then one attack you have a better chance to hit and crit

 

[Celebrim]

OMG I would kill someone like that... just write all the bonuses on the sheet... if someone casts a buff spell.. write all your attacks on the same scrap paper you track hit points on..

if you look down and see +15/+15/+12/+12/+7/+7 you know what your attacks are...

I solve this problem by writing those numbers down beside me on a pad, and then if the player is math challenged all he has to do is report his die rolls. This also has the advantage of making it clear to other players when one of thier members is consistantly misreporting his dice rolls.

Players that cannot resolve thier actions efficiently are punished by the loss of in game turns (they are given a six second warning if they dither to much). If the player is confused or hesistant and doesn't act, so is the character. It only has to happen once or twice, and players become paragons of dice rolling efficiency. They also tend to pay attention more when its not thier turn in the combat.

 

[Counterspin]

Lots of people have trouble with multiple attacks at different bonuses. I find that my group doesn't have that problem until later in the evening, where it gets to be an issue. I hope that D&D is like Saga, in that only dedicated fighters get four attacks in a round, and then only for clearing out mooks, that two weapon fighting is always two attacks rolled at an identical bonus, and that in many cases multiple attacks are represented as a single roll with added damage dice (Rapid Shot giving keeping -2 to hit but giving you an extra die of damage).

 

[Plane Sailing]

This is very important to remember. Two weapon fighting may actually have more to do with being able to use two weapons effectively by having access to both sets of manuvers at once. Somebody hefting a rapier and a main gauche without two weapon training may only be able to use the manuvers of one of the pair, while a two weapon fighter would be able to use the main gauche's defensive manuvers as well as the rapier's offensive speed.

Heck, there might even be one or more specific styles of TWF with their own benefits.

For some neat examples of the whole 'weapon styles' thing, you could do far worse than look at Masters of Arms, an excellent supplement produced by Second World Simulations

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4351

Although it mentions 'prestige classes', those are really just pegs to hang a whole bunch of weapon specific feats on.

It has always been great, one of those hidden gems that many people don't know about.

4e could do a lot worse than take a leaf out of that book in concept (even though it does rely upon the iterative attack routines to make some of the things 'work')

Cheers

 

[Felon]

As for this allowing for more movement and cinematic combat, whatever. If your players run their characters as standing there toe-to-toe hacking away and doing nothing else, that's on them. My group has plenty of movement and lots of stupid cinematic maneuvers.

Then, as the game currently stands, your friends are taking a bunch of attacks of opportunity while simultaneously screwing themselves out of iterative attacks. There is a strong disincentive to moving in 3e's combat rules. That some folks choose to move anyway doesn't refute that.

I really don't see what the problem is with iterative attacks. You can roll a handful of d6 for a fireball spell, you can roll 3 or 4 d20 for attack rolls. Do the DMs here roll one die at a time for monsters with multiple attacks?

If you're engaged with multiple foes, there is an incentive to roll each attack separately.

 

[Felon]

I oppose the restriction on movement (only 5 feet) while making multiple attacks under the full attack option.

That always bothered me because an archer can stand in one place and shoot all over creation, so how can it be problematic for a melee character to run up to one foe, slash him open, then run up to another opponent and cut him down as well, and continue until he runs out of movement or attacks. Why do I need the dervish PrC to do this?

 

[Celebrim]

Then, as the game currently stands, your friends are taking a bunch of attacks of opportunity while simultaneously screwing themselves out of iterative attacks. There is a strong disincentive to moving in 3e's combat rules. That some folks choose to move anyway doesn't refute that.

Ever been in melee combat? It rarely moves more than 10' or so, and it just about never involves the combatants gaining a large separation between each other.

Have you ever consider that the strong disincentive from moving being that the alternative is to fight is probably not a bad system? It's got problems, but the solution is not letting longer moves to take place. If a designer looks at the D20 system and says, "Gee.. this combat isn't particularly 'cinematic'. Well, this full attack mechanic makes movement an unattractive option. Let's change that and see what happens!", then to be fully frank, I think that's a sign of a pretty poor designer who can't distinguish what they imagine would happen, or what they want to happen, from what will actually happen. I see that sort of problem in the house rules all the time, but it comes from guys who aren't paid to do this for a living.

 

[mmu1]

Multiple attacks per round have always been one of the things that make me feel like my character is growing in power. It's one thing to say "well, see, this represents a flurry of attacks", it's another (for me, a lot more satisfying) to actually roll multiple attacks.

Getting a class-based bonus to damage definitely isn't going to accomplish the same goal. This isn't to say that 4E won't manage to make higher-level characters feel different from and more powerful than low-level ones, though all the talk about making the "sweet spot" last from level 1 to 30 doesn't really inspire my confindence... It sounds like a good way of making the combat feel the same no matter what level you are, if they're not careful.

That, and having multiple attacks actually allows you to, you know, try multiple things in the same round. I have seen high-level characters successfully go for a disarm, a trip, and a couple of regular attacks all in one pass. Seemed cinematic to me...