D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Cap'n Kobold]

Some items cost hundreds of times another item's price based on "rarity" alone, despite having the same utility. But you don't want items to vary in price based on utility?
I don't get it.

Take the example of armour given in the post that was advocating a 'true utility-based price list'. Under that basis, it would cost less than 50gp to enchant some armour types with a +2 bonus, yet enchanting others would cost tens of thousands of gp for the same enchantment.
Whereas I generally work on the basis that adding an enchantment to one type of weapon or armour will cost a similar amount to putting the same enchantment on another.

I stated that I didn't generally use the DMG prices without some adjustment. But a flametongue dagger will generally have a similar price to a flametongue greataxe for example.

I don't change my base price the price for boots of flying for example, to take into account that no one in my current group has access to personal flight.

Edit: more utility based pricing is supposed to avoid items with the same utility costing vastly different amounts.

I am aware. And I change some prices on that basis. But the 'true utility-based price list' that Cap'nZapp for example was demanding is too extreme and in my game would do more damage to suspension of disbelief than any good it would do to game balance.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Lanefan]

Umm, pick what you want magic buffet magic item shopping (excellent phrasing by the way) is PRECISELY what is being asked for here.

If it's not for magic item shopping, then what is a new price list for? What purpose does it serve? Why do we need a new price list if these items are not going to be for sale to the PC's?

It's not always such a direct correlation.

I prefer there to be some sort of baseline price lists that I don't have to build myself, but that doesn't in the least mean I support magic buffet item shopping!

It's realistic that within the game world random magic items are occasionally going to come available for sale or trade; and for this I'd like a pricing guide.

But I'll repeat again: random items. Things other adventurers don't want or can't use or have in surplus. Heirlooms being sold when there's no heirs left. That sort of thing.

Not pick-what-you-want.

 

[Satyrn]

It's not always such a direct correlation.

I prefer there to be some sort of baseline price lists that I don't have to build myself, but that doesn't in the least mean I support magic buffet item shopping!

It's realistic that within the game world random magic items are occasionally going to come available for sale or trade; and for this I'd like a pricing guide.

But I'll repeat again: random items. Things other adventurers don't want or can't use or have in surplus. Heirlooms being sold when there's no heirs left. That sort of thing.

Not pick-what-you-want.

Aye. It's a tool that can be used in more than one way. Will be used in many different ways by the tables that use it. I'm sure there were lots of 3e 4e games that didn't have magic shops despite the list being in the PH.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It's not always such a direct correlation.

I prefer there to be some sort of baseline price lists that I don't have to build myself, but that doesn't in the least mean I support magic buffet item shopping!

It's realistic that within the game world random magic items are occasionally going to come available for sale or trade; and for this I'd like a pricing guide.

But I'll repeat again: random items. Things other adventurers don't want or can't use or have in surplus. Heirlooms being sold when there's no heirs left. That sort of thing.

Not pick-what-you-want.

But...but...if it's random and occasional, then you don't need to a price list that you build yourself. You just need that occasional price.

Let's say you somehow randomly determine that a shady merchant has a Figurine of Wondrous Power: Olivine Platypus for sale. How much is he asking? Well, you know your heroes are all toting around about 10k gold, so you make up a price: 25k gold. (I spent a solid 0.75 seconds making that up.)

Is that too much or too little? And how could you possibly tell the difference? I guess if they won't pay the 25k then it's too much. If they eagerly buy it, you probably underpriced it. But so what? But what does the "right" price really mean from game balance perspective?

 

[Lanefan]

But...but...if it's random and occasional, then you don't need to a price list that you build yourself. You just need that occasional price.

Let's say you somehow randomly determine that a shady merchant has a Figurine of Wondrous Power: Olivine Platypus for sale. How much is he asking? Well, you know your heroes are all toting around about 10k gold, so you make up a price: 25k gold. (I spent a solid 0.75 seconds making that up.)

Is that too much or too little? And how could you possibly tell the difference? I guess if they won't pay the 25k then it's too much. If they eagerly buy it, you probably underpriced it. But so what? But what does the "right" price really mean from game balance perspective?

This is why I'd want the professional designers to at least give me the baseline, as they can take all these things into consideration from the perspective of looking at the whole list as opposed to just one random item. Then, once I've got that baseline list to work from, I can tweak to suit the campaign and-or perceived utility and-or rarity.

And while it's random, it's more often than occasional. I have a built-in guideline in one respect: I can look at how much of their magic treasury the PCs sell off after each adventure (and for this I also need prices!) and use that to give me an idea of how much might be on the market given how much overall adventuring generally gets done out of the place they're at.

That said, in truth there's one very artificial thing I do with pricing: with rare exceptions it's always the same everywhere you go. Why? Because I flatly refuse to DM a game of buy-low-sell-high, which would be the inevitable result were I to vary magic item prices from one town or source to the next.

Lanefan

 

[Sunseeker]

Aye. It's a tool that can be used in more than one way. Will be used in many different ways by the tables that use it. I'm sure there were lots of 3e 4e games that didn't have magic shops despite the list being in the PH.

As a 3.X and 4E enjoyer and also someone who detests magic item shops, I've made compromises.
+1 through +5, with no special qualities, is simply a variety of Masterwork.
Magic abilities may be attached to items with no static bonuses to them.
Getting both requires finding either Legendary gear by defeating equally legendary foes, or finding a smith capable of making +X gear of the level you require and a wizard capable of enchanting it how you need, which may be a quest in and of itsself! But both of those things would be made easier, and would make it easier to communicate the value of their work with an established baseline for that kind of gear of that kind of quality.

I have no problem with a "shop" offering that kind of service. But it's certainly not going to work like a dry-cleaner.

 

[ad_hoc]

This is not about me winning or losing. Forcing me to block them, and I that's what this is as I cannot see or respond to their posts, just as they cannot see or respond to mine, is no different than a schoolyard bully going up to a new kid and forcing him to give up his lunch money. I characterize this and fight against it, because it's what I feel and believe.

A person not consenting to converse with you is not bullying.

Here is the real analogy which happens frequently out in the world - A man accosts a woman on the street. She asks to be left alone. He thinks she is mean and feels that he has the right to converse with whomever he wants so he doesn't leave. He continues to harass her.

The woman isn't bullying him. She is just not consenting to interacting with him. This isn't an attack on his freedom.

You don't like that people aren't talking to you. Too bad.

 

[Maxperson]

So, I will try this one more time. Your opinions are not the same as the opinions of everyone else. I don't think that the threshhold for civil discourse should be "Anything up to blatant racism." I like a more ... nice ... forum than that.

I didn't say that's what the threshold for civil discourse should be. What I said was, it takes that level for me to just report a post without trying to resolve things myself first. Not that anything up to that point was kosher. Sometimes, often really, people cross lines without meaning to. By bringing it to their attention myself, I will sometimes get an "Oops, sorry." and we move on. In the vast majority of instances, there is no need for me to hit the report hammer without first trying to resolve the issue.

The thing that I love about enworld is that people get together and have good conversations about D&D. And other stuff, sometimes. For the most part, it is remarkably civil. Yes, sometimes it gets heated (as this thread, or others, prove). But for the most part, it is remarkably more pleasant than many others. Part of that is the moderation. Part of that is the norms of enworld and the community. And part of that is the ability to ignore- because whenever I'm thinking about taking it up a notch to show that other person JUST HOW WRONG THEY ARE, GRRR, I remember that I don't want to be that guy, I don't want to be ignored, and I try to tone it down. And I think that's a good thing.

I like those things as well. I just have a few steps I go through before hitting report is all.

 

[Maxperson]

So in the interest of closing this side discussion about the ignore function and allowing Max to see the posts I've written earlier today, I've removed everyone from my ignore list.

To recap for Max's sake.

1. When I put people on ignore, I expect that while I won't be able to see the person I ignore, I do not expect that others would not be able to see my posts.
2. Cap'n Kobold corrected my understanding of how the ignore function works here. With that said.
3. I had no intention of offending Max when I ignored him. My only point to telling him I was ignoring him was so he wouldn't expect direct replies.

While this whole thing has done me a world of good in that I now understand the nuances of the ignore function fully, I'm not terribly pleased that I caused a side kerfuffle about bullying. Everyone has my apologies there.
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - You have my apologies, and I'm not going to judge you based on your social world view.

Be well
KB

Hey. I really appreciate this, and well, I'm rather pleasantly surprised. Things like this don't happen often. Kudos to you, and I wish there was an ignore function here that worked differently. People should be able to hide posts from those that they don't want to see without affecting the other person.