D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[UngainlyTitan]

I've run a couple of campaigns to level 20 and played in another. It was a lot of fun and it worked just fine. I can't say that about the previous editions, 4E worked but fights took far too long especially in epic tier. With 3E casters dominated the game after about level 15 or so.

But 5E? It worked just fine for me. There's not enough support for high level monsters which is something they've discussed for the 2024 release. But it's mostly a chicken and the egg - modules and monsters don't go that high with only a few exceptions for the latter. Modules in particular are difficult to write because there's a lot of variation at high level on what the party enjoys and is capable of needs more tailoring to the group in my experience. Then again, they also have people fighting avatars of a god at 15th level in Rise of Tiamat or going to the hells in Rise of Avernus so they've kind of toned what should be very high level challenges to be survivable by low level PCs.

Many groups fall apart or are ready to move on after a while and so on. I think there may be more high level play if there were better guidelines for creating higher level PCs. But the structure of high level 5E is not the problem.

Personally I hated 3.x after level 7 or so as a DM and would probably not much of a fan of it as a player much higher. Never got to high level 4e as my players decided that they did not like it around level 7 or so.

For 5e I mostly agree with @Oofta, I have only run one campaign at that level (I depend on published material) and I found it fine up to level 18 or so. I found level 18 to 20 hard and I think more examples would help.
I found watching Critical Role high level play instructive. especially after running some high level stuff myself and I would like to see some good live play for a group with only 4 players or so.
I think that it is easier to go all out against larger parties than a party of 4 where it can be more swingy.

 

[TheSword]

The DM's Lair posted this video recently ...

In it, he discusses reasons why few people play High-Level 5e D&D.

I've been DMing for 30 years (starting in 2nd edition AD&D), and I can say that the highest level reached in any of my campaigns was around 12. My wife, who discovered the game during the 5e era, asked me recently why our games don't get to higher levels. She is beginning to feel discouraged that she'll never have a character who will be able to use "really cool abilities."

While watching the DM's Lair video, I had an epiphany: I don't think high-levels are now (or have ever been) intended to be played. It's like buying a Powerball ticket when the prize has reached $500M. It's aspirational. It's the story of the American dream - "if you just work hard enough, you too can become Jeff Bezos."

Realistically, it's never going to happen, but it's an extra power fantasy grafted on to your existing power fantasy of playing D&D.

Sure, there are going to be a handful of people who have played 18-20th level who are going to post here to prove me wrong, but I think those of us who frequent these boards have an exceptional level of interaction with the hobby.

What do you think? Do you think high-level play is actually important to the game? Do you think it's just in the book for nostalgia or window-dressing for power gamers?

Hmmm. High level campaign I’ve ran to higher levels.

• Way of the Wicked to 19th
• Tomb of Annihilation to 14th
• Carrion Crown to 16th
• Rise of the Runelords to 17th
• Odyssey of the Dragon Lords to 15th
• Various high level one shots.
• Currently running Age of Worms at 15th level and counting with almost certainly get to 20.

I would say they were some of my most fun games to DM or play in. Was the high level part the best bit? Probably not, but it certainly is fun to keep a successful campaign going. Of course for that to work level 1-12 have to be really good fun first.

To be honest I think the biggest block to high level play is not the DM or the rules of the game but rather how much effort players are willing to put in to both their absorption of world information and interaction with the game world. Lots of players are only interested in the 30ft x 30ft room in front of them and little else. That won’t cut it in high level play.

I think for this reason, Way of the Wicked was so well done. It really grounded players in the world and made that world an integral part of the campaign. Very clever and very fun to run right up to level 19 where the wicked PCs got their just desserts.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The idea is just an excuse to disenfranchise players who don't subscribe to the zero to hero play loop and try to signal to designers not to cater to them or provide TLC, often in the form of placing what should be lower level abilities in the high tiers 'beyond the reach' of the good and noble players that would never want to engage in power fantasy in this power fantasy game.

Most games don't get to high level because people feel pressured to start at level 1 and it's hard to maintain a campaign for as long as it takes to get to high levels due to keeping a plot going that long and keeping people from having interrupting commitments that long.

 

[nevin]

high level spells only break the game if you don't read them, enforce their restrictions and let the BBEGI's use them as well. Also it's the end of telling anyone in your group ever what is coming next. If you tell the party what is coming out of game they'll most likely win everytime. They need to plan and sweat and memorize spells for multiple contingincies because they don't know what's coming. I'd say any DM who hasn't commonly used pc caster classes as bad guys, or played high level Cleric or mage, and doesn't consider how the entire "ecosystem" around the high level characters is going to react is going to feel this way. If the Bad guys use the same spells and do the smart things like blocking scrying, using forbiddence, Wish etc then they spells really don't break the game. Now the game becomes crazy Swingy in combat. a couple of undetected rogues can mean dead party members, a lucky spell can mean a few party members run like hell and have to come back for thier friends. Those happy little lord of the rings moments aren't going to happen often. your plot is going to take wild turns when say they summon high level planar ally and suddenly the Host of heavenly angels is aware of thier deeds (good and bad) and how they are affecting the reality they protect.

High level games are, other High level NPC's, gods, demi-gods, mythic creatures with special abilities, demons, devils, ArchFey and all the other planar creatures out there and the higher you get the closer you get to offending the really smart and powerful ones who aren't just going to throw an elder elemental at you. This is where the Dragon may actually be a 20th level wizard who shapechanged and made it permanant. You are at the level where PC's can wish a change in reality, so can Djinn, Devils, ArchFey, gods and demi-gods. What happens if your wish changes something and Mechanus decides to fix it? This kind of problem is what an over the top wish should create. or, Oh goodie the cleric's god is our patron, wait the rest of the pantheon wants us dead because we are too successful.......(oops), or maybe worse the god of tricksters likes you guys and starts working you into his plans.

High level run right is also very frustrating for players that don't like it when the bad guys can keep secrets. Say the thieves guild hires mages then teleports to the ship they are guarding and swaps the cargo in mid transit without notice. When you start looking for the guys that stole your stuff 2 months ago and probably don't even have it any more it gets frustrating.

simple things like the forbiddence spell, trace teleport, hiding magic items in lead containers, Organizations becoming interested in the PC's and worried about what they are doing researching everything about them so that when they go too far, it's a well prepared group of, say in this instance , High level Paladins, Clerics and Wizards who come for them with no warning at all because they wished a change into reality and thier God instructed them to deal with those who violated reality. And if I were running it the leader of the paladins would have an old school antimagic , Holy sword gifted by his god to help get rid of those who were arrogant enough to change what the god's rule. Even beating that group makes it worse because the god is still out to get the PC's.

In all the arguments I've ever had about broken spells the one I hear the most is the DM who doesn't want to do to the party, the things they do. Some DM's seem to think that's cheesy or unfair. That's high level. Having just recently played 3 sessions in our level 14 with special god favors as powers, session trying to find the kidnapped party member, then trying to get there past all thier wards and an entire city of enemies who knew we were coming and were waiting for thier chance to take us out and then dealing with the fallout after we scared a city of our enemies, (still in progress) and caused them to react and then others to react and now we are in a chain of whack a mole looking for the root cause. That's an average high level game plot.

If you are trying to just march up to the dragon's lair and kill a dragon and the dragon doesn't have some Wizard and cleric allies , or magic items that let them neutralize certain spells then it'll be easy and no fun. I gaurrantee you if they have magic or allies who have magic and you use it properly. You'll find it may actually become hard to convice your party to go after such things even when they have 9th level spells.


Even if you are transitioning this from a low magic game where the NPC's are all level 10 or below, the universe is full of High level creatures, gods, and NPC/PC's who are going to notice the new upstarts .

All the stuff above is all over the place but entering High level should be like discovering Game of Thrones has been going on your entire life but you just didn't notice it. but now your in the game and you have to figure out what the game really is, what the individual plans of your enemies and even your allies are and how you are going to survive it. It is also a loooooot of work for the DM, and knowing the spells, high level abilities of all classes and what they can do and how to counter them is important. I'd guess that is what kills most high level games, it's just too much work for the DM.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yeah I have always stopped running campaigns around 9th-13th levels as well. For me it has always been real life limitations - usually people moving or schedules preventing enough play to reach higher levels. But I would love to play or run in a high-level gamer.

Actually have been working on a dungeon for 15th+ levels which has been fascinating - I find myself leaning into high level powers with “yes but” implementation (rather than hard counters) & also weaving in PC roleplay / backstory / motivation exploring or testing situations and hooks (which feels even trickier than doing so at lower levels due to presumption of lots of character history).

 

[TwoSix]

I haven't gone to the highest levels in 5e, but I've played and run multiple games that have progressed to the top of Tier 3 (level 16).

Personally, I find tier 3 play to be a lot of fun. There are really only a few problematic spells (like simulacrum), but I haven't played with anyone who actually tried to abuse them.

 

[Maxperson]

The DM's Lair posted this video recently ...

In it, he discusses reasons why few people play High-Level 5e D&D.

I've been DMing for 30 years (starting in 2nd edition AD&D), and I can say that the highest level reached in any of my campaigns was around 12. My wife, who discovered the game during the 5e era, asked me recently why our games don't get to higher levels. She is beginning to feel discouraged that she'll never have a character who will be able to use "really cool abilities."

While watching the DM's Lair video, I had an epiphany: I don't think high-levels are now (or have ever been) intended to be played. It's like buying a Powerball ticket when the prize has reached $500M. It's aspirational. It's the story of the American dream - "if you just work hard enough, you too can become Jeff Bezos."

Realistically, it's never going to happen, but it's an extra power fantasy grafted on to your existing power fantasy of playing D&D.

Sure, there are going to be a handful of people who have played 18-20th level who are going to post here to prove me wrong, but I think those of us who frequent these boards have an exceptional level of interaction with the hobby.

What do you think? Do you think high-level play is actually important to the game? Do you think it's just in the book for nostalgia or window-dressing for power gamers?

Neither. It's not for nostalgia or power games. It's for fun. Starting in 3e we(in multiple different groups) reached mid teens routinely and 17-20+ in about 40-50% of the campaigns. This has not changed for 5e. We don't do it for nostalgia. We don't do it to power game. We do it because it's fun to reach and play high level PCs.

 

[Mort]

To be honest I think the biggest block to high level play is not the DM or the rules of the game but rather how much effort players are willing to put in to both their absorption of world information and interaction with the game world. Lots of players are only interested in the 30ft x 30ft room in front of them and little else. That

This is an interesting point.

I do think high level play requires significantly more investment in the game. But I think a GREAT part of that investment has to be in the mechanics of their characters than even the world around them, and a lot of players aren't as interested in that.

I've run high level games for groups who SAY they want to try high level, but then put in absolutely no work into knowing their characters (despite several reminders to be as fluent as possible) - it's frustrating. The amount of work I have to do to keep the game going is HIGH. But with a group that's fully into it? It's a great experience.

 

[nevin]

Hmmm. High level campaign I’ve ran to higher levels.

• Way of the Wicked to 19th
• Tomb of Annihilation to 14th
• Carrion Crown to 16th
• Rise of the Runelords to 17th
• Odyssey of the Dragon Lords to 15th
• Various high level one shots.
• Currently running Age of Worms at 15th level and counting with almost certainly get to 20.

I would say they were some of my most fun games to DM or play in. Was the high level part the best bit? Probably not, but it certainly is fun to keep a successful campaign going. Of course for that to work level 1-12 have to be really good fun first.

To be honest I think the biggest block to high level play is not the DM or the rules of the game but rather how much effort players are willing to put in to both their absorption of world information and interaction with the game world. Lots of players are only interested in the 30ft x 30ft room in front of them and little else. That won’t cut it in high level play.

I think for this reason, Way of the Wicked was so well done. It really grounded players in the world and made that world an integral part of the campaign. Very clever and very fun to run right up to level 19 where the wicked PCs got their just desserts.

I've always found the best thing to do with a high level game is make sure the players have followers, allies, friends guild halls, cities or kingdoms that they help protect. The more the PC's are attached to the world around them the more resources they'll expend to protect them. It also make the game so much more enjoyable for them as long as you can control yourself and not attempt to turn all of that stuff into only weaknesses to exploit.

 

[Umbran]

Over the decades, I've played in and run some high level D&D games.

I've also played and run as many non-D&D games that have gotten to the upper levels of advancement supported by the system (like Shadowrun, Classic Deadlands, Ashen Stars, White Wolf Mage, and others).

It is my observation that games for which power growth is an intrinsic part of play, breaking at the upper end is a common, perhaps universal, feature. It isn't a D&D-specific thing, but an issue that any rules framework has a window of good performance, and it tend to fail outside that window. "Breaking" is some mixture of issues of being difficult to prep, bog down in play, have PC balance issues, have initiative= win issues, or the like.

That said, though, I don't think that the major barrier on high-level play is that breaking. I think that the major speedbump is time commitment limitations and limits of basic interest in very-long-running play. I expect most campaigns top out at 18 months or so, regardless of the level of play. Reaching high-level play then would call for starting a game at mid-level.

And I don't know if doing so really serves most folks highest priority goals of play.