D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Maxperson]

For those with experience in the following games, how would you rate or summarize high level play in each?

D&D 3.0
D&D 3.5

Very, very fun, but as a DM creating NPC/Monster spellcasters was a pain. Balance wasn't much of an issue, because I knew the system and the PCs well, so I knew their strengths and weaknesses and could craft encounters to be easy, moderate or challenging. I just had to ignore the CR system entirely when I did it, though.

Pathfinder 1E
D&D 4E

Never played.

D&D 5E

Fun, but the biggest hurdle for me at high levels was the limited monster pool @Oofta mentioned. Most of the monsters at high level are just some flavor of dragon, giant or evil extraplanar being.

Pathfinder 2E

Never played.

LevelUp A5E

Never played, but going from what I saw in the playtest and the monster book which I bought, it would be better and more enjoyable than 5e.

 

[Reynard]

I think i would like to run a high level campaign by first having the PCs play one adventure at, say, 3rd, 7th, and 11th level, then jump to 15 and go forward from there. It would help get the players familiar with their PCs, help give the PCs a history (together and in the world) and allow me to lay groundwork for the ongoing campaign.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The DM's Lair posted this video recently ...

In it, he discusses reasons why few people play High-Level 5e D&D.

I've been DMing for 30 years (starting in 2nd edition AD&D), and I can say that the highest level reached in any of my campaigns was around 12. My wife, who discovered the game during the 5e era, asked me recently why our games don't get to higher levels. She is beginning to feel discouraged that she'll never have a character who will be able to use "really cool abilities."

While watching the DM's Lair video, I had an epiphany: I don't think high-levels are now (or have ever been) intended to be played. It's like buying a Powerball ticket when the prize has reached $500M. It's aspirational. It's the story of the American dream - "if you just work hard enough, you too can become Jeff Bezos."

Realistically, it's never going to happen, but it's an extra power fantasy grafted on to your existing power fantasy of playing D&D.

Sure, there are going to be a handful of people who have played 18-20th level who are going to post here to prove me wrong, but I think those of us who frequent these boards have an exceptional level of interaction with the hobby.

What do you think? Do you think high-level play is actually important to the game? Do you think it's just in the book for nostalgia or window-dressing for power gamers?

I’ve played in a 1-30 4e campaign and out 5e campaign is lvl 15 now. I have also played 3-4 on shots at level 20.

So I can’t speak for all editions, but high level can certainly be played (and should be) in 4e and 5e.

 

[nevin]

I haven't gone to the highest levels in 5e, but I've played and run multiple games that have progressed to the top of Tier 3 (level 16).

Personally, I find tier 3 play to be a lot of fun. There are really only a few problematic spells (like simulacrum), but I haven't played with anyone who actually tried to abuse them

But when you put the use of that spell into the DND ecosystem you are using ask yourself, what is the god of death going to do when he/she finds out you are avoiding your fate? Remember these high level spells are "reality" altering or "breaking the rules" of some god or even the creator. Wizards are powerful because their spells can change reality. There are entire races of outsiders who's job is to protect the flow of reality. If it were the greek pantheon the moment you wake up on your body, I'd imagine a guy whispering to hades, and then his reply "Release the Furies!". Or it's common magic for high level mages and all the other high level mages, rich mages, rich nobles, rich thieves etc, have all been waking up in thier prepurchased bodies and our mage who thinks he's smarter than everyone else is going to have fun at the DM's expense.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But when you put the use of that spell into the DND ecosystem you are using ask yourself, what is the god of death going to do when he/she finds out you are avoiding your fate?

If you're rolling with people with a fat stack of diamonds and a Res spell, it wasn't your fate.

 

[nevin]

Over the decades, I've played in and run some high level D&D games.

I've also played and run as many non-D&D games that have gotten to the upper levels of advancement supported by the system (like Shadowrun, Classic Deadlands, Ashen Stars, White Wolf Mage, and others).

It is my observation that games for which power growth is an intrinsic part of play, breaking at the upper end is a common, perhaps universal, feature. It isn't a D&D-specific thing, but an issue that any rules framework has a window of good performance, and it tend to fail outside that window. "Breaking" is some mixture of issues of being difficult to prep, bog down in play, have PC balance issues, have initiative= win issues, or the like.

That said, though, I don't think that the major barrier on high-level play is that breaking. I think that the major speedbump is time commitment limitations and limits of basic interest in very-long-running play. I expect most campaigns top out at 18 months or so, regardless of the level of play. Reaching high-level play then would call for starting a game at mid-level.

And I don't know if doing so really serves most folks highest priority goals of play.

in the best high level games this is part of the plot. Some god trying to take over the pantheon, destroy the world, get that ultimate wish stone left by the creator that will let him change the rules. Don't hide it, run with it.

 

[nevin]

If you're rolling with people with a fat stack of diamonds and a Res spell, it wasn't your fate.

no if you have a god of death then there are rules. I'm pretty sure magically avoiding the underworld is going to be noticed eventually. Now the question is do they come for you or just wait and add it to your list of crimes. but every high level game is different and that's the DM's call.

 

[the Jester]

A big part of the paucity of high level play is the lack of high level content. But a large part of the lack of high level content is the fact that it's very easy for a high level party to set a very personalized agenda. For instance, instead of going out to save some town from a monster, the high level party might set out to change the town's government, use plant growth to end famines, use widespread lesser restorations to end disease, and try to create a Utopia. Or they might decide to go destroy the evil empire that is their nation's primary rival. Or go on a quest to kill Graz'zt because they had an adventure involving his cultists back when they were 5th level and really disliked him as a result.

I do think high levels are important and need more support. The bastion system is a start, though I think we also need a system for mass combat, and a strong set of rules for political maneuvering and social engagement in general would be cool. Good example adventures, including a good example of one that is highly customized to the pcs, would be very helpful for DMs who have little experience in high level play. Advice for navigating high level magic, as well as for customizing high level play to various playstyles (i.e. do you want high level martial characters to be anime style, badass realism style, or what?), would be good.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

We played a 4+ year homebrew-world campaign at the local game cafe (then online due to pandemic) that went from 1-20. We had fun with it. Two characters actually died in the final showdown against a Pact Lich (Creature Codex). Granted they first had a funnel of baddies - many of which were BBEGs they met along the way that the Lich had animated as intelligent undead- plus lair effects and legendary actions to contend with.

 

[nevin]

A big part of the paucity of high level play is the lack of high level content. But a large part of the lack of high level content is the fact that it's very easy for a high level party to set a very personalized agenda. For instance, instead of going out to save some town from a monster, the high level party might set out to change the town's government, use plant growth to end famines, use widespread lesser restorations to end disease, and try to create a Utopia. Or they might decide to go destroy the evil empire that is their nation's primary rival. Or go on a quest to kill Graz'zt because they had an adventure involving his cultists back when they were 5th level and really disliked him as a result.

I do think high levels are important and need more support. The bastion system is a start, though I think we also need a system for mass combat, and a strong set of rules for political maneuvering and social engagement in general would be cool. Good example adventures, including a good example of one that is highly customized to the pcs, would be very helpful for DMs who have little experience in high level play. Advice for navigating high level magic, as well as for customizing high level play to various playstyles (i.e. do you want high level martial characters to be anime style, badass realism style, or what?), would be good.

The problem with more high level content is one teleport and that content is now useless. The players can just say no and plane shift. I would love to see a proper epic level handbook that makes sense and flows from say 15ish to demigods but haven't seen one of those for any system that I truly like. The only one I've ever seen that comes close to being functional is the PF 1e Mythic handbook and it needs a complete rework. Some of it is brilliant, some of it is you get an ability you can get as a class feature and they call it mythic. It's very hit or miss. but as a framework for high level play I consider it a great idea.