D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Minigiant]

"It doesn't work for my style of play and I'm unwilling to change my style of play" is not the same as broken.

Not what I said.

There are 6 ways to play low level 5e.
There are 2 ways to play high level 5e.

That's broken.

Edit: Correction. There are 2 ways to play high level 5e.

 

[Shardstone]

The claim made in the video is that "No one plays high level" is obviously false. Statements that "High level play simply doesn't work" or "It falls apart" or related statements are also false. They may not work for a specific style of play style or specific DM. But for many people who are interested in playing high level it does work.

Saying that high level 5E D&D works has nothing to do with that there should be more support for high level play or that, depending on DM and group, high level play is a worthy goal. We have no idea what percentage of people play high level, nor do we know all of the reasons behind those percentages.

I wish high level play was better supported, in particular more support for high level monsters. Fortunately it sounds like they are moving in that direction. But I also think they need to stop having modules where people are doing what should be high level campaigns. Fighting gods at level 12? Going to the hells at level 2? Really? They've left very few concepts for high level campaigns when they do that.

I largely agree but I really think you're missing one major component.

A high-level party has history. They have allies, enemies, and adventures all. They have done wild things. And higher level play is usually predicated on this very history.

Enter an Adventure Path for T3 to T4. This Adventure Path is difficult to write, primarily because of this history. And I don't just mean with the players now, but with the game world. Introducing a specific dark empire into every game is difficult, or a specific big bad. And since D&D encourages people to change settings as they wish and to homebrew their own -- a good thing, btw -- it is even harder to make a high level adventure that people can easily use in their game.

This isn't an absolute problem. It is still possible to write around this in numerous ways. And I think the culture of the contemporary TTRPG table is moving towards a solution already. Games these days are shorter. While years-long games still happen, the average game doesn't go past a year. Many games don't outlive a season. With this, we can divine a trend that smaller stories are going to become more popular. Adventures that can be played in a season with different people or different characters, IMO, will become more attractive then playing the same character from 1-20.

This is all speculation for me. While I know for a fact the average game doesn't go past a year, I'm too lazy right now to find my source.

 

[Shardstone]

Not what I said.

There are 6 ways to play low level 5e.
There are 2 ways to play high level 5e.

That's broken.

Edit: Correction. There are 2 ways to play high level 5e.

Broken is too harsh a word. It's just not optimal.

 

[Minigiant]

Broken is too harsh a word. It's just not optimal.

If your supported playstyles drop off a cliff because of favoritism and lack of support, broken is an appropriate level of harshness.

 

[Oofta]

Not what I said.

There are 6 ways to play low level 5e.
There are 2 ways to play high level 5e.

That's broken.

Edit: Correction. There are 2 ways to play high level 5e.

Whether or not there are only "2 ways to play high level 5E" is true or not, it does mean there are 2 ways to play high level 5E. In other words, you aren't willing to adjust your play style to make it work. If you were, it would work.

I don't see any contradiction with what I said and what you claim, even if I disagree with your analysis.

 

[Shardstone]

If your supported playstyles drop off a cliff because of favoritism and lack of support, broken is an appropriate level of harshness.

I both agree and disagree. I think it is ok for a game's style to change in different tiers. I wish more styles were supported at higher tiers.

 

[Oofta]

I largely agree but I really think you're missing one major component.

A high-level party has history. They have allies, enemies, and adventures all. They have done wild things. And higher level play is usually predicated on this very history.

Enter an Adventure Path for T3 to T4. This Adventure Path is difficult to write, primarily because of this history. And I don't just mean with the players now, but with the game world. Introducing a specific dark empire into every game is difficult, or a specific big bad. And since D&D encourages people to change settings as they wish and to homebrew their own -- a good thing, btw -- it is even harder to make a high level adventure that people can easily use in their game.

This isn't an absolute problem. It is still possible to write around this in numerous ways. And I think the culture of the contemporary TTRPG table is moving towards a solution already. Games these days are shorter. While years-long games still happen, the average game doesn't go past a year. Many games don't outlive a season. With this, we can divine a trend that smaller stories are going to become more popular. Adventures that can be played in a season with different people or different characters, IMO, will become more attractive then playing the same character from 1-20.

This is all speculation for me. While I know for a fact the average game doesn't go past a year, I'm too lazy right now to find my source.

High level modules are absolutely difficult to write. Heck, writing a module that works for every group even at low levels is pretty much impossible. One of the reasons I don't use modules is so that I can run a home campaign that will run for years that builds on what happened before.

There are a lot of ways high level games could be better supported. In addition to more high level monsters, there there should be more support and guidance for starting games at higher levels in the DMG. If you have a module there should be clear guidelines on expectations of the PCs. I would like to see a book of high level challenges, settings and small story arcs I can use for inspiration or even to stitch together a high level campaign.

They've acknowledged that there need to be more support for high level games, we'll see where they go with it.

 

[Minigiant]

Whether or not there are only "2 ways to play high level 5E" is true or not, it does mean there are 2 ways to play high level 5E. In other words, you aren't willing to adjust your play style to make it work. If you were, it would work.

I don't see any contradiction with what I said and what you claim, even if I disagree with your analysis.

It's not adjusting a playstyle. It's whole new style.

High level 5e D&D deletes certain playstyles and replaces them with...nothing.

You become stuck with Hardcore Dungeon Crawling or Mass Minion waves as your only options. Options people had at low levels and choose not to have.

It's like having a vegan, egg, chicken, fish, beef, and pork option for an appetizer but only beef and pork entrees.
You are saying "Just eat the beef".

 

[Minigiant]

I both agree and disagree. I think it is ok for a game's style to change in different tiers. I wish more styles were supported at higher tiers.

It's okay for playstyles to change at high levels.
It's not okay to support dramatically lower amount of playstyles in high levels than low levels.... for TEN YEARS!
Nah, you earn your criticism after 10 years of nothing.

 

[Oofta]

It's not adjusting a playstyle. It's whole new style.

High level 5e D&D deletes certain playstyles and replaces them with...nothing.

You become stuck with Hardcore Dungeon Crawling or Mass Minion waves as your only options. Options people had at low levels and choose not to have.

It's like having a vegan, egg, chicken, fish, beef, and pork option for an appetizer but only beef and pork entrees.
You are saying "Just eat the beef".

I make very few changes to the core rules, it works for me. I can only go by my experience though because other than changes to the game that alter it's very nature (e.g. mythic martial characters), the complaints are quite vague. I don't do hardcore dungeon crawls or mass minion waves. The settings and events change, but I don't make any fundamental changes to the play loop.

I have no idea why high level doesn't work for you, but it is absolutely not limited to the playstyles you list.