D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Minigiant]

The only change I make to the play loop is to use the gritty rest rules and have at least 4 encounters for long rest in most cases. I don't do dungeons, much less dungeon crawls.

Stop telling me I can't do what I have successfully done or participated in multiple times.

I'm not trying to offend you. Your preferred playstyles is supported by the designed.

Saying to others to "Stop playing your way. Play my way." does not alleviate the point that the other playstyles are valid but not supported.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There aren't any because like I said many D&D fans are selfish and those who ain't are rarely in the position to do it

So unless RPG was specifically designed for it, it is highly unlikely.

That doesn't mean it's impossible. It however requires a generation change. When 6e eventually does come out it likely won't be headed by AD&D fanboys.

Likely because we'll all be dead.

That being said, I have a hard time just believing something can be done (or is likely to ever be done) by a profit-hungry IP holder when they have no precedent for ever doing that thing.

Of course, my version of high level play would simply move into the domain game, a better use for the endgame levels in my opinion than anything WotC has produced. But I know I'm in the minority there as a TSR/OSR fan.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not trying to offend you. Your preferred playstyles is supported by the designed.

Saying to others to "Stop playing your way. Play my way." does not alleviate the point that the other playstyles are valid but not supported.

Every game has limitations. One of the limits of high level 5E is not "dungeon crawls" or "waves of minions". Other than ensuring that you have more than a fight or two between long rests, I follow the rules of the game. I am certain that other styles are just as valid as mine, but no it cannot support every possible theoretical style. It can't do that at any level, nor can any other game that works in a fashion similar to D&D.

Since you are unable to unwilling to explain specific issues with high level campaigns I see no reason to continue discussing it.

 

[Minigiant]

Likely because we'll all be dead.

That being said, I have a hard time just believing something can be done (or is likely to ever be done) by a profit-hungry IP holder when they have no precedent for ever doing that thing.

Of course, my version of high level play would simply move into the domain game, a better use for the endgame levels in my opinion than anything WotC has produced. But I know I'm in the minority there as a TSR/OSR fan.

You got it backwards.

The problem isn't the profit hungry company. It's favoritism.

For example domain management.

The design is a fifth edition did not prioritize domain management as an option for high levels. Therefore they created a game that did not have the knobs or openings to insert domain management into it.

So now when they try to put domain management in the game it's a little ill-fitting.

And because of their favoritism to other systems and apathy to domain management there is less of a market for domain management in the community and therefore there's no drive by the profit hungry corporation to give them time and money to create a domain management system that can fit into the current one.

And that goes with domain management or mass combat or intrigue and diplomacy systems or high level organizations or apocalyptic events or high level threats or any other style of high level play.

If you only provide two options for high level the only people who want to play high level or people who want those two options.

 

[Minigiant]

Since you are unable to unwilling to explain specific issues with high level campaigns I see no reason to continue discussing it.

I explained it several times in this and many other thread.

Here's the short recap.

There's no domain management.
There are a few high level monsters that have adjustments to the abilities of high level characters.
There's no system for creating high level organizations which adjust to the abilities of high level characters.
There's no diplomacy and intrigue system in order to give a non-compact threat to high level characters.
There are no other high fantasy elements and subsystems that scale too high levels but spell casting that are more appropriate to other types of monsters and threats that they could employ.
There are no examples of high level apocalyptic or world changing events that can be applied to the adventures at high levels in order to give different styles of high low play.
There are no optional rules or variants in order to speed up the slow play that typically happens but high level D&D.

And there's barely any high level adventures and high level monsters and a few that we do have are very difficult to use because they run on player systems that take a very long time to run.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You got it backwards.

The problem isn't the profit hungry company. It's favoritism.

For example domain management.

The design is a fifth edition did not prioritize domain management as an option for high levels. Therefore they created a game that did not have the knobs or openings to insert domain management into it.

So now when they try to put domain management in the game it's a little ill-fitting.

And because of their favoritism to other systems and apathy to domain management there is less of a market for domain management in the community and therefore there's no drive by the profit hungry corporation to give them time and money to create a domain management system that can fit into the current one.

And that goes with domain management or mass combat or intrigue and diplomacy systems or high level organizations or apocalyptic events or high level threats or any other style of high level play.

If you only provide two options for high level the only people who want to play high level or people who want those two options.

Good point. It seems WotC's lack of interest in providing variety is the problem. Fair enough.

 

[Oofta]

I explained it several times in this and many other thread.

Here's the short recap.

There's no domain management.

That assumes anyone wants domain management in D&D. I've never met anyone in person who has expressed an interest.

There are a few high level monsters that have adjustments to the abilities of high level characters.

I actually agree with this one, I custom-build monsters. They've acknowledged this is an issue.

There's no system for creating high level organizations which adjust to the abilities of high level characters.

I don't know what this means. Create organizations and populate it with NPCs.

There's no diplomacy and intrigue system in order to give a non-compact threat to high level characters.

I don't want any such system at any level. It would lead the the gamifying some of the most fun RP of the game. Another thing I've only seen a small handful of people ask for and never in person.

There are no other high fantasy elements and subsystems that scale too high levels but spell casting that are more appropriate to other types of monsters and threats that they could employ.
There are no examples of high level apocalyptic or world changing events that can be applied to the adventures at high levels in order to give different styles of high low play.

There are a ton of high level apocalyptic or world changing events in modules. In fact, I think there are too many. The main issue I have with them is that they're targeted at too low a level.

There are no optional rules or variants in order to speed up the slow play that typically happens but high level D&D.

It's far better than it was in 4E, but I don't know how you would do that without changing the nature of the game. I personally didn't run into too many issues, although of course more options and more things going on will slow down the game.

And there's barely any high level adventures and high level monsters and a few that we do have are very difficult to use because they run on player systems that take a very long time to run.

Yeah, developing modules for high levels is tough and always have been unless, like 4E you have a fairly narrow band of expected power level with specific number of magical items and the like. Again, I think there should be better guidelines and assumed power levels in the DMG.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That assumes anyone wants domain management in D&D. I've never met anyone in person who has expressed an interest.

I don't want any such system at any level. It would lead the the gamifying some of the most fun RP of the game. Another thing I've only seen a small handful of people ask for and never in person.

Hi. Pick a neutral location and we can hang out.

 

[Oofta]

So what do you do that isn't essentially a dungeon crawl or waves of minions, but maintains the lower level gameplay loop? Do you have any examples?

The last game saw the PCs return to their hometown after a stint in Jotunheim. They found out that the city leadership had been taken over by a new leader ruling through an ally that had epic levels of enchantment magic (an ongoing campaign theme) and constructs.

So the party had to rally forces, figure out plans, do investigation and interaction with the NPC doing the enchantment, etc. All pretty basic themes that hit in earlier campaign arcs. After that, having enough fights to stress their resource management was pretty easy given gritty rest rules.

A typical fight was a CR 20 modified Lord of Blades along with a handful of CR 12ish constructs and an archmage with improved invisibility (also CR 12) just to make the PC's lives difficult. I actually set up this fight as an option simply so that the wizard could have fun doing things like casting meteor storm, something that could not have happened had they stayed in town. Well, unless they wanted to kill off a major portion of the city's population of course.

As far as other high level arcs that we may circle back to some day? Well there is still a powerful dracolich out there somewhere that's pissed at the group. That would be more akin to a dungeon crawl. Then there's the power behind the invasion from Jotunheim that was left dangling, so a trip to Jotunheim and on to Avernus (a realm accessed via Jotunheim in my campaign) might be an option. But for the moment we're taking a breather and playing a new campaign starting with level 0 PCs.

But game flow and number of rests per encounter? Pretty much the same as I typically run, just different stakes.

 

[Oofta]

Hi. Pick a neutral location and we can hang out.

The game is never going to spend significant amounts of money and effort to please a small minority. That's why they support 3PP products.