"No save or die", but now "20 and TPK".

[Bagpuss]

I wouldn't be as worried about the fact they have removed save or die, more they have introduced "Dragon rolls and 20 its a TPK".

From The Core Mechanic article

When a dragon breathes fire on you, it attacks your Reflex and deals half damage if it misses. The DM rolls a d20, adds the dragon’s modifiers, and asks you what your Reflex score is. The dragon might roll a 1 and automatically miss no matter how much tougher it is than you, but there’s also the frightening possibility that it will roll a 20 and deal double damage.

Folks familiar with the new Star Wars Saga system will recognize this concept, but it’s evolved a bit to better suit D&D.

Yeah and folks familiar with the Star Wars forums will know that soon after its release there were multiple threads with GM's complaining about several (even all) players dropping from one stormtrooper getting a 20 on his autofire attack, or thrown grenade. They then quickly came out with an errata to say area effect attacks cannot critical (see the errata for page 155).

And yet here it appears you've completely ignored the playtesting that resulted from releasing SAGA edition to the public, since dragons can critcal with their breath weapon.

 

[Henrix]

I'm betting, and hoping, that the dragon rolls one attack against each opponent. More dice rolls, but more fun as well.

 

[Wormwood]

I'm betting, and hoping, that the dragon rolls one attack against each opponent. More dice rolls, but more fun as well.

Sounds you might have your first 4e house rule, because speeding up play by eliminating die rolls seems to be a 4e design goal.

 

[Cadfan]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.

First, that a dragon's breath is an area effect at all times. Review the dragon combat article, and you will see that at one point the dragon breathes fire on just one character. This implies that a dragon's breath weapon is, at the very least, not always an area effect.

Second, that a dragon's breath weapon in 4e does the same very high damage that it does in 3e. If the damage is lower, then doubling it is less of a concern.

Third, that an area of effect attack can critical everyone it hits. If criticals are considered in 4e to work similarly to how precision damage works in 3e, this will not be the case. A single "official" target will be chosen, and critical hits will only count versus that foe.

If your assumptions are correct, and dragon breath weapons do huge amounts of damage to an area of effect that can cover the whole party, and can obtain critical hits against everyone in the area of effect, then yeah. It will be a problem.

But given that 1) other options are possible, 2) the designers are apparently aware of the problem, as they know about it in SWS, and 3) the one thing the designers of 4e seem exceptionally good at is a logical, mathematical approach to game design, I'm not going to get upset yet.

 

[Bagpuss]

More proof evidence pointing towards of criticals on Area effect attacks.

Have you played a spellcaster and been a little envious of the excitement of other players when they roll critical hits? Have you wished that you could do that for your spells?

Wizards already can critcal with their ray spells, the ones they can't critical with tend to be area effects like fireballs.

Now you might think you roll a d20 against each target in the area effect.

Is it really going to speed up the game if the wizard now rolls a d20 for each creature that is under the fireball template, and then has to apply separate damage to each one depending on if he missed (half damage) hit (full damage) criticalled (double damage). And speeding up the game seems to be key to 4e's design concepts.

No you roll once an then compare against the Reflex save of creatures in the area, thats how it "works" in SAGA, but in SAGA they quickly changed it when GM's found parties dropping like flies to a handful of stormtroppers using autofire.

SAGA had errors reintroduced from D&D that had been errated since the SRD, so wouldn't be surprised that 4e designers haven't checked the errata for SAGA.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I think that Henrix has the best solution here, since it makes it very unlikely for you to score an area crit on every target.

However, given that 4th Edition is trying to reduce the number of attack rolls, I am not entirely convinced that they will go this way. In a high level party with 3rd edition, you may have the players make 11 or so attack rolls for the players between iterative attacks and summoned monsters, and a handfull of saves for the opponents. If you instead change this to 3 attack rolls for melee attacks + 8 attacks for the group of bad guys your mage just tossed a Fireball at, you do not gain too much.

Regardless, the results of critical hits are much easier to manage than the results of Save or Die spells. A crit is just extra damage, and as a practical matter, it is pretty difficult to nail all of your players with one area spell anyway, especially if your using mini's.

(As a slight derail, the reason I like using mini's is that you often end up with combatants scattered all over the place rather than being in a situation where a mage can somehow always trivially avoid friendly fire while hitting nearly every opponent with Fireball).

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think that Henrix has the best solution here, since it makes it very unlikely for you to score an area crit on every target.

At that point, why not retain saves? Its faster to ask the players to roll their saves than roll a different attack for each of them.

I'd prefer a primary target or something for AE's, and if a crit occurs, its against that target. The guy the dragon is really going after, or the poor sap hit with the bead that explodes into a fireball, etc.

 

[Bagpuss]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.

....

If criticals are considered in 4e to work similarly to how precision damage works in 3e, this will not be the case.

Now who is assuming facts not in evidence...

If your assumptions are correct, and dragon breath weapons do huge amounts of damage

They don't have to do huge amounts of damage, because when they critcal it will be doubled, they only need to do a reasonable amount. Or are 4e dragons breath weapons just going to be ineffectual coughs most of the time?

to an area of effect that can cover the whole party, and can obtain critical hits against everyone in the area of effect, then yeah.

I think it's safe to assume some dragons will have a cone effect breath weapon.

It will be a problem.

It's not just breath weapons though the mention of wizards implies it is going to work that way for all spells as well. The mention of breath weapons and wizards being able to critical make it more likely they are talking area effect attacks.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'd prefer a primary target or something for AE's, and if a crit occurs, its against that target. The guy the dragon is really going after, or the poor sap hit with the bead that explodes into a fireball, etc.

Oh course then you have the issue with template placement, if you need to centre it on one guy. You place templates on intersections not in squares. So can you critcal everyone adjacent to the intersection? Also wouldn't you rather place the template to get as many as possible instead of a chance of a critcal on one? How much extra time is going to be wasted on placing templates if you have to make additional decision like that?

 

[Bagpuss]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.

First, that a dragon's breath is an area effect at all times. Review the dragon combat article, and you will see that at one point the dragon breathes fire on just one character. This implies that a dragon's breath weapon is, at the very least, not always an area effect.

It doesn't need to be an Area of Effect at all times, it only needs one area effect critical TPK to ruin the campaign.

From the Dragons article.

On the dragon’s turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feet—a free action.

Oh—that gives the dragon the opportunity use its breath weapon as an immediate action. A huge cone of fire bursts from the dragon’s mouth, engulfing all four PCs.

Heck it's done two area of effect attacks and it hasn't even used a standard action.