No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[RigaMortus2]

Yes, that's true. But bear in mind the caster must first be outside of the anti-magic field to cast the spell. And second, what's the problem with that?

I think it is more of a problem with casting the orb INTO the AMF in order to damage the target. The Orb spells just pass through the AMF when casting/firing from the outside in.

 

[KarinsDad]

There's a couple of PHB spells that do. Melf's Acid Arrow. Acid Fog.

Ah yes.

Instead of a max of 15D6 for a 4th level spell, it's typically a max of 8D6 (and often less) for a 6th level spell.

It'd be pathetic if a damage spell required 1) an attack roll to hit and 2) save for half damage. No one would use it. That was the case with the original Flame Arrows before it got broken down into Scorching Ray. And the original text of the Orb spells. I mean you don't see Polar Ray making a save for half damage.

No, but it does have SR. At 15th level, a 4th level Orb spell does the same damage as an 8th level Polar Ray spell, but the Orb spell does not have SR and has a special condition if a save is failed. Granted, the Polar Ray does more damage at higher levels, but consider: at 15th level, the 4th spell is considerably better than the 8th level spell.

The conjurer is better with a 4th level spell than an evoker is with an 8th level spell for an energy damage spell which is the evoker's specialty.

That's just plain imbalanced.

If you're just going to use that train of logic, a not of PCs/NPCs don't have SR and Evasion either.

No, but they all have saves.

Yes, that's true. But bear in mind the caster must first be outside of the anti-magic field to cast the spell.

And this is important how? AMF has a radius of 10 feet. It is extremely rare when an enemy spell caster is within that range.

And second, what's the problem with that?

The problem is that Antimagic Field is a 6th level spell that is supposed to be the ultimate protection versus cast spells (at the cost of losing the caster's only spells and magic items) and a 1st or 4th level spell can blow through it.

That's a serious balance issue.

 

[charlesatan]

I think it is more of a problem with casting the orb INTO the AMF in order to damage the target. The Orb spells just pass through the AMF when casting/firing from the outside in.

Just clarifying. =) I think it's an entirely different situation when you're casting it from inside than when you're outside.

Also AMF blocks line of effect if I'm not mistaken. It makes casting anything into the anti-magic field impossible but if you want a ruling on it...

 

[charlesatan]

Ah yes.

Instead of a max of 15D6 for a 4th level spell, it's typically a max of 8D6 (and often less) for a 6th level spell.

No, you simply asked for spells that could damage a golem. If you wanted spells that could deal significant damage to a golem, that's another matter. And Acid Fog for me has always been a tactical placement spell rather than a damaging one.

No, but it does have SR. At 15th level, a 4th level Orb spell does the same damage as an 8th level Polar Ray spell, but the Orb spell does not have SR and has a special condition if a save is failed. Granted, the Polar Ray does more damage at higher levels, but consider: at 15th level, the 4th spell is considerably better than the 8th level spell.

If you wanted to argue the merits of the ability to ignore SR, then simply say so. Don't go around the argument that "it's a touch attack that almost hits and can also do double damage." Because every ray damaging spell falls under that.

And I wouldn't say the Orb spells are considerably better than Polar Ray. At high levels, I'd actually be using Polar Ray (because of Split Ray metamagic) more often than the Orb spells unless I have good reason to do so. And yes, a lot of spells are pretty much like that. I mean Delayed Blast Fireball is really just an upgrade of Fireball. The delayed part is situationally useful but I honestly don't think the time it's used with its delayed effect outnumbers the times it's used as a glorified fireball.

No, but they all have saves.

In contrast to the Orb spells which is an all or nothing deal if they miss the attack roll?

What point of attack roll do you not get? Even Melf's and Scorching Ray isn't a sure thing -- they get attack rolls. If I had a high BAB and a high Dex it might be an auto-hit but when you're a mage, you have crappy BAB. And unless I cast it in the first round of combat, pseudo-ray spells get messier: cover, penalties for allies in melee, etc. reduce my chances unless I have a big investure in feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc.). There are even situations when the targets simply have a high touch AC (ring of protection, insight bonuses, luck bonuses, etc.). Your AC is your save.

And this is important how? AMF has a radius of 10 feet. It is extremely rare when an enemy spell caster is within that range.

I thought it was an anti-magic field in general rather than the specific spell.

The problem is that Antimagic Field is a 6th level spell that is supposed to be the ultimate protection versus cast spells (at the cost of losing the caster's only spells and magic items) and a 1st or 4th level spell can blow through it

I think this is a matter of expectation. Again, it does nullify spellcasters when they're in the field. If they're out, everything is free game (everything from casting Cometfall or some other "indirect" way of harming the target).

That's a serious balance issue.

I think we've shown that it's not. Is it a good spell? Arguably so. Broken? Some of us believe it is, some not. However I'd like to point out that does that do usually point flavor and thematics as a reason (the conjuration vs evocation). I also think part of it stems from the fact that it breaks certain sacred cows (i.e. golems being totally invulnerable to magic).

Mechanically, here's my argument. If we ignore the SR component, would it be a broken spell? If your answer is no, then we can move on to what I think is the heart of the argument: "Are the Orb spells balanced/broken because they go through SR?" I feel that's a better argument rather than me having to go through the dynamics explaining ray spells, metamagic feats, etc.

If your problem is the fact that it ignores SR, just say so. If it's about dealing about a crapload of damage because of metamagic feats, a lot of spells falls under that complaint. If it's about the fact that it has no saving throw for half damage, again, a lot of spells has that. If it's about the fact that it's resolves as a ranged touch attack, again, see ray spells.

 

[Rystil Arden]

No, you simply asked for spells that could damage a golem. If you wanted spells that could deal significant damage to a golem, that's another matter. And Acid Fog for me has always been a tactical placement spell rather than a damaging one.




If you wanted to argue the merits of the ability to ignore SR, then simply say so. Don't go around the argument that "it's a touch attack that almost hits and can also do double damage." Because every ray damaging spell falls under that.

And I wouldn't say the Orb spells are considerably better than Polar Ray. At high levels, I'd actually be using Polar Ray (because of Split Ray metamagic) more often than the Orb spells unless I have good reason to do so. And yes, a lot of spells are pretty much like that. I mean Delayed Blast Fireball is really just an upgrade of Fireball. The delayed part is situationally useful but I honestly don't think the time it's used with its delayed effect outnumbers the times it's used as a glorified fireball.



In contrast to the Orb spells which is an all or nothing deal if they miss the attack roll?

What point of attack roll do you not get? Even Melf's and Scorching Ray isn't a sure thing -- they get attack rolls. If I had a high BAB and a high Dex it might be an auto-hit but when you're a mage, you have crappy BAB. And unless I cast it in the first round of combat, pseudo-ray spells get messier: cover, penalties for allies in melee, etc. reduce my chances unless I have a big investure in feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc.). There are even situations when the targets simply have a high touch AC (ring of protection, insight bonuses, luck bonuses, etc.). Your AC is your save.





I thought it was an anti-magic field in general rather than the specific spell.




I think this is a matter of expectation. Again, it does nullify spellcasters when they're in the field. If they're out, everything is free game (everything from casting Cometfall or some other "indirect" way of harming the target).



I think we've shown that it's not. Is it a good spell? Arguably so. Broken? Some of us believe it is, some not. However I'd like to point out that does that do usually point flavor and thematics as a reason (the conjuration vs evocation). I also think part of it stems from the fact that it breaks certain sacred cows (i.e. golems being totally invulnerable to magic).

Mechanically, here's my argument. If we ignore the SR component, would it be a broken spell? If your answer is no, then we can move on to what I think is the heart of the argument: "Are the Orb spells balanced/broken because they go through SR?" I feel that's a better argument rather than me having to go through the dynamics explaining ray spells, metamagic feats, etc.

If your problem is the fact that it ignores SR, just say so. If it's about dealing about a crapload of damage because of metamagic feats, a lot of spells falls under that complaint. If it's about the fact that it has no saving throw for half damage, again, a lot of spells has that. If it's about the fact that it's resolves as a ranged touch attack, again, see ray spells.

charlesatan, I'm wondering--do you play at higher levels? If so, do you fight against by-the-book monsters? If so again and you use the Orb spells as written in their gloriously-broken no-SR splendour, do you honestly see people using Polar Ray? Because I'm here from experience with play in that level, and I can tell you that SR is a major factor and the orb spells (metamagicked up to snuff) break the game at high levels if the SR isn't changed.

All the other stuff? KarinsDad is 100% right that the touch attack roll is *much* better than Reflex half for the caster (enemies tend to have excellent Ref saves compared to touch AC. Look at any dragon), but it doesn't break the game at that point--it is just a black eye for the Evoker. The ignores-SR-and-SR-equivalents thing is massive--it is 95% of the issue here, a gravity to which Karinsdad making 6 points, all valid but less important, doesn't quite do justice without that emphasis. Heck, look at the name of this thread

At low levels, the brokenness of the Orb spells is much less apparent because SR is rarer. Let's look at high levels though:

Level 20 Wizard in a party VS Wyrm Red Dragon BBEG:

So we have Connie the Conjurer and Evan the Evoker. All things about them are equal except specialty school (heck, they could be the same character--Evan the Evoker is better off using the Orbs too).

Evan has a few choices. With his caster level of 20, he could Empower an Cold-Subbed Delayed-Blast Fireball for 30d6 (*1.5 due to weakness - the dragon's inevitable ice-related defenses). Evan's DC is likely going to be 29 or lower, which the dragon makes on a 9 (or lower), so the dragon is probably taking half damage as well, so more like 22.5d6 - cold defenses. Let's say the dragon only has up Resist Energy--that's 48.75 damage on average if it saves, or 127.5 if not. Sounds good, right? That's 80 Damage average. But the dragon also has SR! Suddenly, average damage decreases to 44, and a lot of that is due to a hefty chance to do 0.

Alright, let's try a Meteor Swarm. We have a problem--each of the meteors is separate, so Cold Resistance applies to each one. This will destroy our only hope, so let's assume we got lucky and picked an element the dragon was dumb enough not to resist (Acid or Electricity, your favourite--of course it would have protected from cold, and it probably protects from Acid because too many things with Acid cut through SR, so let's pick electric) Despite doing only 24d6 Electric and 8d6 bludgeoning (not multiplied), the meteors can't miss except on a 1, so no save is allowed. That's 106 Damage again. But SR applies again! Damage is reduced to 58.52. This is better than Polar Ray would do, so we'll ignore Polar Ray.

Evan probably cleans up with a Quickened Cone of Cold (subbed to Electric because we're pretending we know the Dragon didn't protect against Electric again) for another 18.7825 damage. So total? 77 Damage average.

Okay, so what about these orbs we hear so much about? Connie tosses an Orb of Electricity just for kicks (because we let Evan pretend that Electricity was not resisted at all by the dragon--if the dragon actually resists electricity, Evan is boned, but Connie can just use Orb of Force), I prefer Twinned because this only uses an 8th-level slot, but Evan used two 9th-level slots, so I'll use the underwhelming Empower + Maximise so that Connie can at least use a 9th and an 8th (her 8th will be a Quickened Orb of Electricity). These both hit except on a 1, like the little meteors, so average damage from the first is 116.25 and from the Quickened one is 52.5 (counting criticals on a 20 to nearly cancel out missing on a 1). This total is 168.75. If it allowed SR, the total would be down to 93 (though using slightly lower spell slots to do so).

This analysis gets MUCH worse if the two casters are lower level or the enemy is stronger. In fact, without Meteor Swarm as an option for the Evoker, if we go down to level 15 and she has to use Polar Ray and Quickened Fireball against Twinned Orb and Quickened Orb, the Conjurer kicks so much ass it isn't even funny (assuming no resistance to electricity and subbing everything to that, the damage is 21.525 for the Evoker and 157.5 for the Conjurer!)

 

[hong]

Mind you, I'm of the opinion that SR as a mechanic sucks the big one. It will be the sixth against the wall when 4E comes.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Mind you, I'm of the opinion that SR as a mechanic sucks the big one. It will be the sixth against the wall when 4E comes.

It is a fairly decent secondary check against low-level characters who munch out their saving throw DCs, but admittedly it could have been more elegant. However, a huge step up from the old flat random % Spell Resistance? Definitely!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also AMF blocks line of effect if I'm not mistaken. It makes casting anything into the anti-magic field impossible but if you want a ruling on it...

And with a Conjuration spell, you need line of effect to the point of origin of the effect. The point of origin of the effect is your palm, which is not inside the AMF; you have line of effect to the point of origin. And after that, as the effect of a Conjuration [Creation] with an instantaneous duration, the orb no longer relies on magic for its existence, and is thus unaffected by the AMF when you make you ranged touch attack with it.

If you were inside the AMF when you cast the spell, it would be a different story.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

These are dumb, but I really think they make as much sense as a non-magical orb of anything that does damage based on the amount of magical power the caster can bring to bear.

Especially a non-magical orb of magical force...


glass.

 

[charlesatan]

charlesatan, I'm wondering--do you play at higher levels? If so, do you fight against by-the-book monsters? If so again and you use the Orb spells as written in their gloriously-broken no-SR splendour, do you honestly see people using Polar Ray? Because I'm here from experience with play in that level, and I can tell you that SR is a major factor and the orb spells (metamagicked up to snuff) break the game at high levels if the SR isn't changed.

All the other stuff? KarinsDad is 100% right that the touch attack roll is *much* better than Reflex half for the caster (enemies tend to have excellent Ref saves compared to touch AC. Look at any dragon), but it doesn't break the game at that point--it is just a black eye for the Evoker. The ignores-SR-and-SR-equivalents thing is massive--it is 95% of the issue here, a gravity to which Karinsdad making 6 points, all valid but less important, doesn't quite do justice without that emphasis. Heck, look at the name of this thread

At low levels, the brokenness of the Orb spells is much less apparent because SR is rarer. Let's look at high levels though:

Level 20 Wizard in a party VS Wyrm Red Dragon BBEG:

So we have Connie the Conjurer and Evan the Evoker. All things about them are equal except specialty school (heck, they could be the same character--Evan the Evoker is better off using the Orbs too).

Evan has a few choices. With his caster level of 20, he could Empower an Cold-Subbed Delayed-Blast Fireball for 30d6 (*1.5 due to weakness - the dragon's inevitable ice-related defenses). Evan's DC is likely going to be 29 or lower, which the dragon makes on a 9 (or lower), so the dragon is probably taking half damage as well, so more like 22.5d6 - cold defenses. Let's say the dragon only has up Resist Energy--that's 48.75 damage on average if it saves, or 127.5 if not. Sounds good, right? That's 80 Damage average. But the dragon also has SR! Suddenly, average damage decreases to 44, and a lot of that is due to a hefty chance to do 0.

Alright, let's try a Meteor Swarm. We have a problem--each of the meteors is separate, so Cold Resistance applies to each one. This will destroy our only hope, so let's assume we got lucky and picked an element the dragon was dumb enough not to resist (Acid or Electricity, your favourite--of course it would have protected from cold, and it probably protects from Acid because too many things with Acid cut through SR, so let's pick electric) Despite doing only 24d6 Electric and 8d6 bludgeoning (not multiplied), the meteors can't miss except on a 1, so no save is allowed. That's 106 Damage again. But SR applies again! Damage is reduced to 58.52. This is better than Polar Ray would do, so we'll ignore Polar Ray.

Evan probably cleans up with a Quickened Cone of Cold (subbed to Electric because we're pretending we know the Dragon didn't protect against Electric again) for another 34.125 damage. So total? 92 Damage average.

Okay, so what about these orbs we hear so much about? Connie tosses an Orb of Electricity just for kicks (because we let Evan pretend that Electricity was not resisted at all by the dragon--if the dragon actually resists electricity, Evan is boned, but Connie can just use Orb of Force), I prefer Twinned because this only uses an 8th-level slot, but Evan used two 9th-level slots, so I'll use the underwhelming Empower + Maximise so that Connie can at least use a 9th and an 8th (her 8th will be a Quickened Orb of Electricity). These both hit except on a 1, like the little meteors, so average damage from the first is 116.25 and from the Quickened one is 52.5 (counting criticals on a 20 to nearly cancel out missing on a 1). This total is 168.75. If it allowed SR, the total would be down to 93 (though using slightly lower spell slots to do so).

This analysis gets MUCH worse if the two casters are lower level or the enemy is stronger. In fact, without Meteor Swarm as an option for the Evoker, if we go down to level 15 and she has to use Polar Ray and Quickened Fireball against Twinned Orb and Quickened Orb, the Conjurer kicks so much ass it isn't even funny (assuming no resistance to electricity and subbing everything to that, the damage is 21.525 for the Evoker and 157.5 for the Conjurer!)

1) Yes, I play at high levels. It's actually my preferred area of play. =)

2) Yes, I would use Polar Ray. Because I can use Twin Spell Split Ray on Polar Ray and not on the Orb spells (because as much as they are like rays, they simply aren't). That's not to say I'd never used Orbs. But the question is a) will I be facing creatures with SR/spell immunity and b) how many. In the absence of a), I'll be using Polar Ray. If they have spell immunity, I'll use the orb. If they have spell resistance, it depends on b) which i'll get to later.

3) I'm not saying that an attack roll isn't better than a saving throw. But if you've ever played D&D, you'll also know how you'll hit on a roll of 5 and above yet you managed to roll 4,3,2, and even the dreaded 1. And again, once they're in melee and firing into melee penalties and cover applies, I'm more hesitant to fire a ray (especially when there's a chance I'll hit an ally). If the dragon in the example used the spell Scintillating Scales which turns their nat armor into a deflection bonus (dragons can cast spells too!), I wouldn't be hitting them in the first place unless I rolled a 20.

4) The dragon example is biased towards the Orb user in the sense that it's a single target. If I were facing multiple opponents (even if they have SR), I'll most likely still be using a Delayed Blast Fireball or Chain Lightning (plus whatever metamagic feat). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the strength of Evocation in my opinion is its ability to tackle multiple foes. If I were facing single targets, I could depend on other schools (Enchantment, Necromancy).

5) In the case of the dragon, honestly, I wouldn't be using either Evocation or Conjuration. If I was of nongood alignment, I'd be casting a Split Ray Twinned Maximixed (Rod) Enervation. The dragon actually has a lower SR for its CR. With spell penetration I have a good chance of penetrating the SR (I'd probably even invest in an item that boosts my caster level or those that helps beat SR). If various books are allowed, I'd cast Assay Resistance in the first place to give me a +10 bonus to the caster level check. Actually optimally speaking, I'd never use Meteor Swarm. It's not as cost efficient as I'd like it to be. I'd honestly actually use Polar Ray (plus whatever metamagic) on it or a lower-level evocation spell (delayed blast, etc.).