No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[James McMurray]

Who said anything about what I follow or don't follow?

Nobody. I made an inferrance I wasn't sure about, and so asked a question.

The fact is, one shouldn't have to house rule it. The rules should be internally consistent. There is no reason to make rules internally inconsistent other than laziness.

One doesn't have to house rule. As I've said repeatedly, the spell works fine, I house rule for aesthetic purposes.

The 3E designers used a lot of effort in an attempt to make the rules internally consistent and flow and give us a better product than we previous had, and then some later designer just blows off that hard work.

OMG! Things are chaning! Help!!!!!

A few years back, some Forgotten Realms designer created a 3E Conjuration Creation spell called Create Magic Tattoo. It had several cool effects in it: Transmutation, Abjuration, Necromancy, etc.

Unfortunately, it had no Conjuration effects in it whatsoever. Some people justified it by stating that the Tattoo was being conjured. In reality, the spell called for the tattoo itself to be crafted by the spell caster ahead of time: no conjuration involved.

If anything, it should have gone into the Universal school because it had effects from so many schools of magic in it. Or, it should have had one of the schools chosen that matched it best.

Never even noticed it's school, but it was definitely a cool spell. Universal is probably best, but so what?

You appear to think that rules inconsistency is fine. I don't. YMMV.

I think balance is more important thatnflavor. Consistency between evocation = energy and conjuration = matter is flavor, not balance.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think balance is more important thatnflavor.

I do not disagree.

I just think that the Orb spells have several balance problems as well as flavor problems:

1) No SR for an energy damage spell. In addition to the other balance issues with this, it also means that they are the only energy damage spells that can affect Golems.

2) Ranged touch attack which almost always hits and can also do double damage.

3) No saving throw (exception for extra effects).

Effectively what these three mean at higher levels is a practically 95% chance autohit spell for fairly high damage.

Standard defenses such as SR, Evasion, and saving throws do not help against it at all.

Sure, effects such as miss chances or energy resistance can avoid or lower the damage, but most characters (PCs or NPC creatures) in the game typically do not have these to a great extent.

When combined with metamagic, these spells can become autokill for the most part.

4) Evocation school of magic spell in Conjuration school of magic. Very few single target evocation spells come close to this level of power. The sole exception (I can think of) is Scorching Ray and even it has close range and SR. These spells make Specialized Wizard Conjurers better single target energy damaging casters than Specialized Wizard Evokers.

5) If a DM follows the Conjuration Creation object rules for the orb spells, then the Orb spells can bust through an antimagic field.

 

[James McMurray]

1) Not a balance issue in my book.

2) Not a balance issue either. It can also miss.

3) Not a balance issue. Except for very powerful spells like disintigrate, ranged touch damage spells should not allow a save.

At the levels where it's an auto hit, it's not "fairly high damage."

"When combined with metamagic they're autokill?" I'll need some proof of that.

4) Flavor, and it far from makes conjurers better at dealing damage than evokers.

5) Yes, if the DM declares that energy is an object, problems arise. Good news tough, there's nothing in the rules to indicate that energy is an object, and everything to indicate that it isn't.

I don't have a problem with the AMF aspect of it though, because spellcasters need something to use against AMF besides run and hide, which while effective at surviving is generally a boring tactic.

 

[Notmousse]

I'm pretty confident no one has advocated that. Objects created by magic (Conjuration-creation) are no longer magical, right? Therefore AMF doesn't negate them.

A ball of fire is non-magical? A ball of force?

As I posted earlier I believe the orbs conjured contain the fuel for such reactions which take place on contact.

 

[Notmousse]

And, what kind of fuel is used for Force or Acid or Cold or Electricity? The concept of "fuel" is one that is not part of the Conjuration Creation subschool of magic.

Fuel is the only way you could conjure anything that has such a reaction, otherwise you're evoking.

Please note that the rule you quote states indefinately, not infinately. An indefinate period of time by definition is not defined, so claiming that period of time to be infinite is foolish. Fire requires fuel to survive, once gone the fire sputters and dies.

 

[Notmousse]

Quote tags are your friend.

Sure they are. Just need to remember to tag the quote message button when I reply.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Aside from Orb of Force, all the other Orb Spells make perfect sense, and balance.

Fire = Naphtha, or White Phosphorus no need for explanation with this one

Acid = obvious, and ditto for the above

Cold = any super-cooled liquid, such as liquid helium, nitrogen, ammonia maybe a ball of carbon dioxide ice filled with liquid nitrogen. how about a face full of that?

Electricity = ball lightning anyone? maybe a chunk of a D&D scaled electric eel. and there are plenty of chemicals that will create a spark.

Sound = concussion grenade, or any sort of mechanical explosion, a thin shelled ball with high pressure something packed into it. remember those bam smacks you threw at your friends around the 4th of July? now think of how big of one you could make if magic is making it for you. maybe the wizard is creating a lit stick of dynamite

As for Force, I probably would make that one SR:yes but the rest are fine as is.

If you want to complain about a spell for being overpowered, try Melf's Unicorn Arrow. seriously.

 

[KarinsDad]

Please note that the rule you quote states indefinately, not infinately. An indefinate period of time by definition is not defined, so claiming that period of time to be infinite is foolish.

So is claiming that it disappears immediately after use. Indefinite means that something lasts until some other factor changes it. Unfortunately, that is not defined by the rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

1) Not a balance issue in my book.

Maybe not for you, but can you list a single target Evocation spell that does energy damage and does not have SR?

Balance is about consistency too.

 

[charlesatan]

1) No SR for an energy damage spell. In addition to the other balance issues with this, it also means that they are the only energy damage spells that can affect Golems.

There's a couple of PHB spells that do. Melf's Acid Arrow. Acid Fog.

2) Ranged touch attack which almost always hits and can also do double damage.

As I pointed out, it's not an "almost always hits". It's a ranged touch attack. Any spell that is a touch attack or ranged touch attack usually has a chance to do double damage. It can be shocking grasp or scorching ray or melf's acid arrow.

3) No saving throw (exception for extra effects).

It'd be pathetic if a damage spell required 1) an attack roll to hit and 2) save for half damage. No one would use it. That was the case with the original Flame Arrows before it got broken down into Scorching Ray. And the original text of the Orb spells. I mean you don't see Polar Ray making a save for half damage.

Standard defenses such as SR, Evasion, and saving throws do not help against it at all.

Sure, effects such as miss chances or energy resistance can avoid or lower the damage, but most characters (PCs or NPC creatures) in the game typically do not have these to a great extent.

If you're just going to use that train of logic, a not of PCs/NPCs don't have SR and Evasion either.

And I'd like to see a Wiz/Sor using the Orb spells hit a Monk.

When combined with metamagic, these spells can become autokill for the most part.

A lot of spells, when combined with Metamagic, are "autokill". In fact, I'd simply go with the spells that don't require a touch attack but have a save for half damage. Half damage of 480 damage for example is still 240 damage.

4) Evocation school of magic spell in Conjuration school of magic. Very few single target evocation spells come close to this level of power. The sole exception (I can think of) is Scorching Ray and even it has close range and SR. These spells make Specialized Wizard Conjurers better single target energy damaging casters than Specialized Wizard Evokers.

Force off, the Orb spells, with the exception of Orb of Force, have a range of close. Second, if I'm taking Evocation, it's usually because I want to target crowds. If I wanted to incapacitate single targets, I'd usually go for other schools: Enchantment to Charm them, Necromancy to weaken them (or outright kill them), etc. And no, the Orb spells aren't better. They just deal about the same damage as an Evocation spell (even less at higher levels).

5) If a DM follows the Conjuration Creation object rules for the orb spells, then the Orb spells can bust through an antimagic field.

Yes, that's true. But bear in mind the caster must first be outside of the anti-magic field to cast the spell. And second, what's the problem with that?