No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Notmousse]

With the exception of the Orb of Force energy resistance applies to all the orb spells. Natural or magical fire is resisted by Fire Resistance.

 

[Nail]

With the exception of the Orb of Force energy resistance applies to all the orb spells. Natural or magical fire is resisted by Fire Resistance.

I'm not following you. How is this germane to the issue at hand?

 

[Notmousse]

That was in response to Henry, not yourself. Remember, I am debating several people. I was at any rate, FF9 calls for me to finally beat it. I shall return later.

 

[James McMurray]

I think his point is that the spell itself is contradictory. It's non-magical fire, and doesn't require fuel. In other words, it sits around indefinitely not needing magic to sustain itself because of what kind of magic it is.

The spell states that the fire remains around indefinitely, not requiring fuel?

 

[KarinsDad]

The spell states that the fire remains around indefinitely, not requiring fuel?

As a matter of fact, yes. It has an instantaneous duration and is a conjuration creation spell.

If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Now, if one states that this rule does not apply because the conjuration creation spell creates an effect instead of a creature or object, then the spell does not belong in the conjuration creation subschool of magic because conjuration creation spells only create creatures or objects by definition.

And, what kind of fuel is used for Force or Acid or Cold or Electricity? The concept of "fuel" is one that is not part of the Conjuration Creation subschool of magic.


In other words, WotC foobared on the Orb spells no matter how one looks at it.

 

[James McMurray]

That quote is in regards to conjured creatures and objects. "It" the pronoun, refers to the nouns in the prior sentence.

Are you saying that fire is a creature or object?

Now, if one states that this rule does not apply because the conjuration creation spell creates an effect instead of a creature or object, then the spell does not belong in the conjuration creation subschool of magic because conjuration creation spells only create creatures or objects by definition.

Really? I can think of at least 8 conjuration spells that create energy (fire, electrical, force, and sonic). It seems rather apparent that WotC feels that Conjuration spells can create energy.

 

[Henry]

That was in response to Henry, not yourself. Remember, I am debating several people. I was at any rate, FF9 calls for me to finally beat it. I shall return later.

While true, there is an orb (orb of Force, as noted) that does bypass that. Orb of Force is to me the most egregious offender, but the others, having previously been only evocation's province, still rankle me a bit. In fact, weren't these spells all Evocations when they originally appeared in Tome and Blood?

 

[KarinsDad]

Really? I can think of at least 8 conjuration spells that create energy (fire, electrical, force, and sonic). It seems rather apparent that WotC feels that Conjuration spells can create energy.

Indeed. Unfortunately, the Conjuration Creation subschool does not:

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace.

...

Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

The problem is that WotC wrote rules concerning the Conjuration Creation subschool and the Evocation school of magic, and then ignored them when creating some spells.


If fire and force are objects, then the Conjuration Creation subschool works. Course, if they are objects, then they should follow the object rules such as having hardness and hit points.

Instead, magical fire and force are actually Evocation subschools in the game, natural fire is an effect, but none of these are objects.

 

[James McMurray]

So you don't follow the principal that specific rules override general ones? Or do you only follow it when you like the results?

 

[Nail]

That was in response to Henry, not yourself. Remember, I am debating several people.

Quote tags are your friend.