No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[GoodKingJayIII]

So you'd make them more powerful than they already are by adding a duration?

I'm guessing he means 1 rd/level or until the orb is used, whichever comes first.

 

[James McMurray]

LOL! Whatever, dude. If you want to hate them, be my guest.

By the way: If it's fire, it requires fuel. Since it is definitely fire and you've said it doesn't require fuel, you've contradicted yourself. Try to get your feelings on the matter sorted out and we'll try this again later.

 

[James McMurray]

I'm guessing he means 1 rd/level or until the orb is used, whichever comes first.

That's still more powerful, since the orbs as listed are conjured and hurled in the same action. There's no option to save them for later. Unless I'm misremembering of course, I don't have the book with me to make sure.

 

[Notmousse]

Dominate is valid if the conjuration effect creates a non-magical piece of matter that causes domination to occur. How is this less valid than a non-magical ball of force?

Because a non-magical ball of force can easily be explained with an already present substance. There are no substances at present that Dominate a creature. Even if there was such a substance big deal, you're Dominated by a blob of stuff, unless it can communicate orders you're just fine.

Why would it be limited resistance? Why would it wear off?

Because a 'sheen' that doesn't interfere with movement is going to be destroyed by the energy it protects you from, and/or simply overcome.

If the spell is creating non-magical energy, why does the damage scale with the level of the caster?

Because as your caster level increases you know how to conjure more potent material.

 

[Notmousse]

There are no rules of conjuration creation fire needing fuel, or conjuration creation force needing fuel, etc. For that matter, since they are not objects (like a Wall of Iron), they have no hardness and no hit points and no listed way to destroy them.

Non-magical fire needs fuel. The spell creates non-magical objects.

 

[SlagMortar]

Because a non-magical ball of force can easily be explained with an already present substance.

I disagree with this statement. If it is a substance, what is is made of? How does the ball of force stay together? Why doesn't it fly apart as soon as it comes into existance? What causes it to fly toward your target instead of dropping straight to the ground?

Edit: I see you've already mentioned this earlier. I'm rereading your earlier posts.

 

[drothgery]

Though I do believe that the 'Sudden' metamagics should require that you first know the metamagic it's based off. A sudden maximized, twinned, empowered Magic Missile is a scarey thing to see your Wiz3 pull out.

If they were 3/day or (casting stat modifier)/day, maybe. At 1/day, they're probably underpowered.

 

[SlagMortar]

You may reconcile the orbs in this way.

The 'orb' itself is an extremely thin non-reactive material that bursts on contact, that may be filled with any kind of substance (Coldfire, Alchemist's Fire, Alchemic Acid, etc...). The substance filled orb is conjured by the spell, and thrown with the help of a conjured wind much like a pellet gun.

Force is pretty easy. Force as far as I've seen has only had one quality universally applied to it, that being kinetic energy (usually applied against someone directly, though at times used to restrain said energy). That being the case I freely assume that within the orb is ectoplasm contained under pressure. Once it strikes it's target the ectoplasm goes boom leaving nothing behind.

Sonic's even easier as all that's required for the bubble to make a really big bang, which could be achieved with a tougher orb filled with nothing (or just too much of any common gas). It pops upon impact causing a noise loud enough to inflict damage on target.

I don't think that ectoplasm can hit incorporeal creatures. Astral Constructs say nothing of being able to hit incorporeal creatures. I don't really see how any non-magical substance can strike an incorporeal creature.

Incorporeal Subtype
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

(emphasis mine)
In fact all orb spells have a 50% chance to damage an incorporeal creature

Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).

I don't think it is going to be possible to come up with a RAW explanation for why orbs overcome spell resistance and also have a chance to affect incorporeal creatures.

 

[Henry]

LOL! Whatever, dude. If you want to hate them, be my guest.

By the way: If it's fire, it requires fuel. Since it is definitely fire and you've said it doesn't require fuel, you've contradicted yourself. Try to get your feelings on the matter sorted out and we'll try this again later.

I think his point is that the spell itself is contradictory. It's non-magical fire, and doesn't require fuel. In other words, it sits around indefinitely not needing magic to sustain itself because of what kind of magic it is.

My personal qualms stem from my position that it makes conjurers a lot more powerful by virtue of their existance, as well as many other conjuration energy effects. If it were a big boulder that dropped on a target's head for 15d6 damage, that's be cool with me (in fact, Cometfall is one of my favorite spells!) But instead it's a series of spells that have their cake and eat it, too -- ranged touch, AMF-resistant, energy resistant, no save, and even has the potential for double damage on a target. It's a spell I'd be surprised if a caster didn't have it written in his spell slots in pen, to quote Ed Stark from a few years ago.

 

[Nail]

If AMF negated anything that had ever been created through magic ....

I'm pretty confident no one has advocated that. Objects created by magic (Conjuration-creation) are no longer magical, right? Therefore AMF doesn't negate them.

A ball of fire is non-magical? A ball of force?