No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[KarinsDad]

Dominate and Polymoph are not valid effects for conjuration because they are not matter or energy.

Actually, to be technical: fire, force, acid, lightning, and cold are not valid effects for conjuration creation spells because they are not objects or creatures. They are effects.

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Course, that did not stop WotC with Acid Arrow or the Orb spells.


Like I said, Orb spells are broken on many levels.

 

[Notmousse]

If AMF negated anything that had ever been created through magic then beholders could just float through Walls of Iron, including some forts and possibly even some castle walls.

 

[Notmousse]

The problem is that as written, Orb spells last forever.

By that logic Walls of Iron never rust. Once conjured they are no longer magical, and thus once the fire is out of fuel it goes out.

 

[SlagMortar]

Dominate and Polymoph are not valid effects for conjuration because they are not matter or energy.

Dominate is valid if the conjuration effect creates a non-magical piece of matter that causes domination to occur. How is this less valid than a non-magical ball of force?

Ditto for polymorph.

The other option might work as either an alchemical substance conjured, or as insulating material conjured. Either way it would be limited resistance (roughly 2-5), and wear off once enough damage was negated (about 10-15).

Why would it be limited resistance? Why would it wear off?

If the created effect is completely non-magical, then a 4th level Orb of Fire should do 1d6 damage on impact with a 1d6 secondary effect if you catch on fire just like alchemist fire.

We know that RAW Orb spells create a non-magical energy that acts exactly like other forms of magical energy except for its interaction with spell resistance. If the spell is creating non-magical energy, why does the damage scale with the level of the caster?

 

[wildstarsreach]

Which is exactly why it should be defeated by AMF and spell resistance, right?

Simple, easy, magical.

Here is the problem, a summoned creature is not subject to SR. At the end of the duration it then goes back. The thinking is because it is summoned into existance and then has to be tossed at the target, it is real and bypasses SR at the time of impact and damage. A spell is still using its tie to magic at the time of damage and is therefore subject to SR. Personally I see this as a way to get around SR by taking a minor limitation which is a ranged touch attack to get almost certain damage. I would just house rule that you can't get around SR by making it a conjuration spell. It is still magically created and therefore subject to SR.

 

[James McMurray]

Also, they're not listed as dealing continuous damage, so while there may be a puddle of leftovers from the Orb of Acid, it's inert and harmless.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Actually, to be technical: fire, force, acid, lightning, and cold are not valid effects for conjuration creation spells because they are not objects or creatures. They are effects.



Course, that did not stop WotC with Acid Arrow or the Orb spells.


Like I said, Orb spells are broken on many levels.

I would also house rule that you have to either use them within 1/rd a level or if the cast another spell the orb disappates.

 

[James McMurray]

I would also house rule that you have to either use them within 1/rd a level or if the cast another spell the orb disappates.

So you'd make them more powerful than they already are by adding a duration?

 

[KarinsDad]

By that logic Walls of Iron never rust. Once conjured they are no longer magical, and thus once the fire is out of fuel it goes out.

Not according to the rules:

It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

There are no rules of conjuration creation fire needing fuel, or conjuration creation force needing fuel, etc. For that matter, since they are not objects (like a Wall of Iron), they have no hardness and no hit points and no listed way to destroy them.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, they're not listed as dealing continuous damage, so while there may be a puddle of leftovers from the Orb of Acid, it's inert and harmless.

Rules quote?

The Instantaneous Conjuration Creation rules state that they last indefinitely and the Orb spells themselves state that they do x damage.

Where in either of these rules do they state that they ever stop doing the listed damage?

Either an Orb of Fire is fire, or it is not.