No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[James McMurray]

The evoker doesn't need it either if he's willing to spend a little time researching variant spells. Energy Substitution is only for the folks that are pressed for time, need a prereq, or lazy.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So change the target of choice from a Dragon to a Ghost Dragon of a younger age category (to maintain the same CR). Now the orb is utterly useless.

How about picking a creature to target that doesn't take 150% damage from the orb? LOL

And Connie can shrug and use an Orb of Force, while Evan is stuck with that 50% incorporeal miss chance unless he uses a metamagicked Magic Missile (which has terrible damage potential). Besides, Ghost Dragons are a whole lot rarer in published and homebrewed adventures I've seen than the regular variety.

 

[Notmousse]

So change the target of choice from a Dragon to a Ghost Dragon of a younger age category (to maintain the same CR). Now the orb is utterly useless.

How about picking a creature to target that doesn't take 150% damage from the orb? LOL

But then the examples wouldn't be horribly skewed in their favor!

 

[James McMurray]

And Connie can shrug and use an Orb of Force, while Evan is stuck with that 50% incorporeal miss chance unless he uses a metamagicked Magic Missile (which has terrible damage potential). Besides, Ghost Dragons are a whole lot rarer in published and homebrewed adventures I've seen than the regular variety.

Yeah, because it's not like he could research a Force version.

If you're looking for rarity, why go for dragons? At most there's usually one in an adventure, whereas there's a lot more other types of creatures. And it could be a ghost anything. Actually, it could be an incorpioreal anything. I haven't done an exhaustive stufy, but I'm pretty sure incorporeal creatures outnumber dragons in published adventures.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The evoker doesn't need it either if he's willing to spend a little time researching variant spells. Energy Substitution is only for the folks that are pressed for time, need a prereq, or lazy.

Wh-huh!? I'm perplexed.

I don't think that's a valid argument anywhere, least of all in the rules forum, right? Once your GM starts letting you research variant spells (and they aren't cheap on the gold either, mind you) all bets are off. That's like if someone said that protection spells like Shield don't give enough AC and you said that you can just research a spell that is higher level and gives more. It's certainly true if your GM allows it, but you can prove anything via spell research if your GM allows it, since the possibilities are infinite, right?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, because it's not like he could research a Force version.

If you're looking for rarity, why go for dragons? At most there's usually one in an adventure, whereas there's a lot more other types of creatures. And it could be a ghost anything. Actually, it could be an incorpioreal anything. I haven't done an exhaustive stufy, but I'm pretty sure incorporeal creatures outnumber dragons in published adventures.

See above post--you can prove anything with arbitrary researched spells. It's a bit like Oberoni's Fallacy, except from the other side of the screen.

 

[James McMurray]

Sure, you could say that spell research lets too much in, but I'm not trying to add anything crazy, just change an elemntal descriptior. I think most GMs would allow that. If you want to discount it out of hand, by all means go ahead. But it's not like "dude, can I have an electrical fireball" is stretching the boundaries of infinite possibility.

 

[Rystil Arden]

But then the examples wouldn't be horribly skewed in their favor!

If Orbs ruin the game against enough monsters, it doesn't matter that they aren't too much better against others and suck against a few. That's like saying that the following spell isn't unbalanced because it won't kill ghosts (or anything except orcs!):

Level 1 Spell: Power Word Orcbane
Range: Long
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V
Targets: All orcs in range
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

Effect: This spell destroys all targets. This is not a death effect, they are just destroyed. For the purposes of Orcbane, Gruumsh and other orc deities count as an orc, as do half-orcs due to the orc-blooded special ability.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Sure, you could say that spell research lets too much in, but I'm not trying to add anything crazy, just change an elemntal descriptior. I think most GMs would allow that. If you want to discount it out of hand, by all means go ahead. But it's not like "dude, can I have an electrical fireball" is stretching the boundaries of infinite possibility.

I probably wouldn't allow it because Energy Substitution is already out there and it seems like a needless complication (I'd rather it be the same spell metamagicked for purposes of Spellcraft and Counterspelling also). I definitely wouldn't allow it as force.

 

[James McMurray]

Cool. Most GMs I know would allow it because it's already balanced by being a feat, so you don't have to sweat over it. Instead of spending a feat you're spending money for an extremely limited use of the feat. Like I said though, feel free to dismiss it. It doesn't really change anything about picking a strong spell, giving the caster foreknowledge of his enemy's weaknesses, and then slapping that enemy (who coincidentally has an abyssal touch AC) with a spell specifically designed to fight that enemy. Energy Substitution works just as well for that sort of stacked setup.