No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[SlagMortar]

I don't think that Notmousse's disagreement with Rystil's argument is logically invalid. The math relies on a couple unstated assumptions:

1. A spell can be broken by being overly powerful in a specific instance.
- I believe this is true if an only if the specific instance is common enough. For example, Bane weapon enhancements are clearly better than their +1 price if you are fighting the bane opponent. If all opponents in your compaign are humans then humanbane is definitely broken, but in general the bane enhancments work fine. I believe Rystil's reductio ad absurdum could be used to "prove" that bane enhancements are broken. "If bane enhancements are not broken, then a +1 enhancement that automatically kills all Balors in a 50 foot radius is not broken." Since most people do not consider bane enhancements "broken", it is possible to have non-broken rules that would be broken if carried to an extreme.

I would add a caveat to assumption #1: If the specific instance occurs often enough.

2. The example Rystil presented is sufficiently general to show that orbs are overpowerred often enough to satisfy my caveat.
- Notmousse is not convinced that orbs are overpowered in enough instances to need a fix.
I believe he wants more details of the example in order to determine if it is a reasonable example that would come up with frequency in a real game - to make sure there are no hidden gotcha's that make the example work. Unfortunately, I think that is the wrong way to go about it. James's method of looking at a published campaign to see which encounters are blown away by orbs is probably the better way to satisfy the "often enough" metric.

Note, I am convinced by the examples and the math that orbs are overpowerred in enough instances to be a problem and to require a rewrite, but the orbs have not been mathematically proven to need a rewrite.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil: Please forgive me for not reading the last ten pages' worth of argument, but I wanted to ask a quick question about your general math. You're saying that a 15th level caster with the Maximize and Quicken Spell feats could do how much damage to a single target in one round? Noting that you can't use both feats on a single 4th level spell, I figure you are calculating 90 damage from the maximized, and then avg. 45 from the quickened spell - assuming you get no energy resistance. That's an avg. of 135, x 2 spell casters = 270. In two rounds, assuming both survived (and both had at least 2 8th level spells), you're hitting 540 avg damage (min 420, max 720). That doesn't really seem high enough to kill a CR 24 red dragon with his 610 HP (on average), although I would say that's probably going to win against a CR 21 with 449 HP. This is, of course, ignoring any existing energy resistance and the dragon's ultimate response, whatever that may be. (Granting that the dragon is a 17th caster-level sorcerer, I'd imagine that spell immunity - another 4th level spell - or globe of invulnerability would be high priorities. Well, or teleport or wish or something.)

Adding Twin Spell or Energy Admixture to the mix (both add 4 levels to a spell) doesn't change anything, because you cannot quicken or maximize a twinned or "admixtured" spell (and you would probably rather maximize than twin or admixture, since you're guarenteed max damage, and the other two options would give you average damage twice). Not to mention that two twinned or admixtured 4th level spells and two quickened 4th level spells means you'd need four 8th level spell slots - impossible for 15th level specialist wizards without some kind of ultra-specialization or extra feats (or a "brokenly" high Int bonus).

Assuming the high-CR dragon did nothing intelligent against the spellcasters (like cast a spell), nor had access to any items that would help, do you mind to do the math for me on what I may have missed that bumps the average damage of those orb spells up again?


Edit: Actually, do you also mind to do the math on why the dragon couldn't kill both casters in one round? A 15th level caster with a 12 Con will have an average of 54 HP. I'm guessing that they would not have evasion, and also could not, on average, make a DC 38 reflex save, meaning the dragon's breath attack would do an average of 110 points of damage to them. Assuming 30 points of energy resistance, that's still more than enough to kill both (on average).

evilbob--

You did the math wrong. 45 is not the spell's average damage, 52.5 is. Also, you forgot the *1.5 - 30 for using Cold. Also, you would definitely rather Admixture than maximise.

As to the Dragon's attack--15th-level Wizard with 12 Con? Any player who manages that feat without dying 20 times or more has impressed me greatly, but that isn't anywhere near a realistic number for a 15th-level Wizard.

 

[Nail]

The average touch AC of all creatures in the MM2, MM3, MM4, FF, Creature Catalogs 1&2, tome of Horrors, and Dungeon Magazine special features combined is 49.95. Orbs blow against anything noncore.

...and with such an answer, a typical question might be: "Where did you get that average? Do you have a spreadsheet of all creatures in those books?"

(An average touch score of ~50? Please.....)

 

[IanB]

If we are assuming that a red dragon who is also a high level spellcaster is smart enough to be prepared with resist elements vs. cold (or protection from elements, which I would think more likely) why are we not also assuming that the dragon is smart enough to be prepared with, say, displacement?

I mean, setting aside the orb spells, dragons just have weak touch ACs period, and there are plenty of other devastating touch attacks out there. It stretches things a little far for my taste to assume they'll prepare for one glaring weakness but not the other.

I also still find myself unconvinced by the touch AC argument. Unless we're talking about a warmage or a warlock I haven't seen casters taking point blank shot/precise shot very often, and so when I think about this situation I tend to add a net 8 points of AC (for shooting into melee and for cover) onto the touch ACs of these opponents, which makes your typical wizard/sorcerer look a lot worse in terms of chance to hit. Certainly in the campaigns I've played in, it would be very unusual for even a 15th level wizard to have a ranged touch attack above +10 or so, and +10 can and will miss frequently against even opponents with a natural touch AC of 10 (18 with cover and melee, remember.)

Warmages are definitely a possible problem here, but I'm not really sure that is the fault of the orb spells alone. Combining the orbs with the free sudden feats and the ability to always choose the best energy type on the fly is a bad combination. A wizard doesn't have anywhere near that tactical flexibility.

I will say one thing that this thread has convinced me of - that easy metamagic feat is not going to be allowed in my games.

 

[evilbob]

45 is not the spell's average damage, 52.5 is.

Ah, you're right - wow, totally don't know what I was doing there.

Also, you forgot the *1.5 - 30 for using Cold.

Hmm... I guess this is a matter of interpretation. Depending on how you approach the situation, there's a lot to be said for a red dragon understanding its weakness and doing something to account for it. However, if we're going for "a totally surprised dragon" (that doesn't have feats from the Dragonomicon, or contengency spells, or any pre-buffs other than 30 resistance) and again ignoring it making any smart moves, you're right. x1.5 easily puts the damage range into "autokill" without a problem.

Also, you would definitely rather Admixture than maximise.

Really? Admixture gives you avg. 52.5 * 1.5 (cold) + avg. 52.5 (other element) = 131.25. Maximized gives you 90 * 1.5 = 135. Besides the fact that maximized gives you a greater reliability, it also gives a higher number. Unless you're saying you could admixture (cold) and (cold), in which case, yes it would give you a slightly higher average damage (157.5).

As to the Dragon's attack--15th-level Wizard with 12 Con?

Um... yeah. I mean, again if you're saying the wizard would spend a lot of time buffing or buying items to prepare or something, then it would be higher - but then you might as well allow the red dragon to cast a few of his own upper-level spells, too. But seriously, I thought I'd be generous with a 12 Con. I'd guess some wizards have more, but typically even upper level wizards don't get a lot more. Wizards don't have HP because wizards don't get hit. If you're playing a wizard and you get hit by something (or at least, if you get hit by TWO somethings), then you're not playing a very good wizard.

But still, let's say the wizard had a Con of 18. That's way high, but that still only gives him 99 HP. That's still under average for the breath weapon.


Honestly, I understand your math, but I think you're presenting an idealized situation. Two 15th level casters, prepared to the gills, knowing what they're fighting, buffed all up, are going to do SERIOUS damage to anything, anywhere, anytime. That said, there should be no way they could guarentee to kill the dragon in 1 round, even with the orb spells. And if they cannot kill the dragon in 1 round, they will not kill the dragon without more of a plan than what you've presented. As I said, 1 4th level spell ruins this plan completely. And of course, 1 full attack against any mage by a dragon is far more likely to work than these orb spells.

As I believe someone earlier has stated, in order to prove that these spells are broken, you will need to show that they are broken in a common sort of occurance. This setup is so far from common - or even unusual - that it fails to convince me as an argument.


Again, I think it is amazing that two wizards, fully prepared and with lots of planning could get very close to guarenteeing that they could down a CR 24 red dragon under ideal circumstances. I just don't think that warrants rewriting a spell.

 

[James McMurray]

...and with such an answer, a typical question might be: "Where did you get that average? Do you have a spreadsheet of all creatures in those books?"

(An average touch score of ~50? Please.....)

So what you're saying then is "show me your work." That's all I'm saying too.

If we are assuming that a red dragon who is also a high level spellcaster is smart enough to be prepared with resist elements vs. cold (or protection from elements, which I would think more likely) why are we not also assuming that the dragon is smart enough to be prepared with, say, displacement?

Or, since we're obviously not shying away from non-SRD material in a thread about orbs, why wouldn't he have a handy Scintillating Scales available? Good luck hitting him with a touch attack from a wizard's BAB after that goes up.

 

[Seeten]

Its like a train wreck, I just keep watching and watching, open mouthed, and staring.

Hours of amusement.

 

[James McMurray]

Happy to be of service.

 

[Benben]

Its like a train wreck, I just keep watching and watching, open mouthed, and staring.

Hours of amusement.

*Hands Seeten some popcorn.*

I've almost posted twice now with rebuttals but thanks the heavens I keep making my Will save.

 

[Stalker0]

But seriously, I thought I'd be generous with a 12 Con. I'd guess some wizards have more, but typically even upper level wizards don't get a lot more. Wizards don't have HP because wizards don't get hit. If you're playing a wizard and you get hit by something (or at least, if you get hit by TWO somethings), then you're not playing a very good wizard.

For PCs, con is generally the wizard's second best stat. First is int, second is con. AC to the wizard isn't that critical because the wizard tries to stay out of combat. But he needs the hitpoints to be able survive a fireball, or take that one big hit from a charging dragon before he can d door to safety.

So at 15th level, I'll assume a wizard has a +6 con item. However, as you said that's only 99 hitpoints, which probably won't cut the mustard. He could add in other spells, like false life, to boost that further.