No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Notmousse]

Also, Notmousse, we've been talking about a CR 24 Red Dragon the whole time.

Then why could no one answer me that simple question all this time? Was a simple request, and appearently you knew this the whole time when I asked awhile back. Why is there fighting against giving me the scenario's full details in order to give a well informed opinion upon which to base a counterarguement?

We can use the CR 21 Red Dragon right out of the Monster Manual with no edits--playtested by the designers as CR 21.

We're going to abandon your arguement that they can take on dragons 9 DR above them, in favor of 6 above them?

I can use that from the book and destroy a level 15 party with no orbs (let's say they have two Evans if you like). Add in no-SR orbs, and that dragon is dead before you can say "Hoard come to momma".

Are you saying that Connie can one shot the Dragon? Because I'm fairly sure the dragon (as written in the SRD, without any of the power creep than the mages can afford) can kill (not down, outright kill) Connie in round 1, even if it loses initiative.

 

[Rystil Arden]

We're going to abandon your arguement that they can take on dragons 9 DR above them, in favor of 6 above them?

No, Team Connie can still beat the CR 24 guy. But you seemed unwilling to do the numbers yourself, dismissive of the work I've presented, and insistent on details that don't matter, so I figured you would prefer the SRD one which has all the details?

Are you saying that Connie can one shot the Dragon? Because I'm fairly sure the dragon (as written in the SRD, without any of the power creep than the mages can afford) can kill (not down, outright kill) Connie in round 1, even if it loses initiative.

Please don't talk about "power creep". Read this post again. Okay, with me? Now, two Connies, without any of the new stuff, can kill the CR 24 (or the CR 21 if you like since it is right there in the book--I don't mind) if they each get two rounds to do it, and it can't kill her with average rolls unless it starts in melee range and gets a full attack. It can flee just fine, if you want to have a game where an EL+9 monster must flee from two mages, but it can't kill her on average rolls (and the CR 21 almost certainly can't kill her unless it gets incredibly unlikely rolls in its favour, which are low enough chance to be discarded).

 

[Notmousse]

:sigh: I knew it would come down to claiming the two feats were the problem and argue "twinked out casters".

Two feats nothing! Each of them had 8. Sure you gave them both 6 of the same feats, but neglected that they were inherently superior in Connie's build than Evan's.

(This requires exactly two feats--Quicken Spell and your choice of Twin Spell or Energy Admixture, with preference to Energy Admixture, though other feats are certainly fun to have)

Of those three feats only Quicken Spell is in the PHB.

Still, on average, she lives through a breath attack and kills the dragon.

A single unaugmented breath attack, and has no provisions for the dragon possibly going before connie and ripping connie to shreds before connie makes a second round of actions. At least that's the way I see it from your description.

In any case it's already midnight. I'm calling it a night and will likely send an angry email to someone about this MP3 player BS in the morning.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Two feats nothing! Each of them had 8. Sure you gave them both 6 of the same feats, but neglected that they were inherently superior in Connie's build than Evan's.

...Umm...dude, they were important to Evan's build too. Otherwise his damage would be down in the toilet. In fact, I can tell you exactly how much he would do without those--Doing the calculations, the Level 20 (not 15 like the Conjurer) Evoker does 12 Damage if he has no metamagic available.

Of those three feats only Quicken Spell is in the PHB.

Really? I actually thought Twin was, but looks like your right. It is fairly basic though, and they're in Complete Arcane (the same book as Orbs, so we know that we're using that one)--I've never seen anyone call Twin Spell "Power Creep". But I'm happy to reduce it even further--I'm that confident that the Orbs will still be devastating if you just give them enough metamagic to go to roughly your highest level. So if you reduce this to just Quicken and Maximise (the barebones mind--this means that Connie has avoided taking 8 possible feats and just taken nothing instead; all she has going for her in the world are Maximise and Quicken, plus the Orbs spells), which are both in the PH, two Connie level 15 can still kill the Ancient Red Dragon (CR = her level + 8), but she becomes unable to kill the Wyrm, barely by the skin of its wyrmy teeth (and if it has no energy resistance or less than 30, it's gone).

 

[Hypersmurf]

If it's something that either the conjurer or the evoker can kill in one round, the example will tell us nothing.

I thought the point was that the conjurer was killing dragons 9 CR above them in a couple rounds.

Let me rephrase it less ambiguously.

If it's something that the conjurer can kill in one round, and that the evoker can also kill in one round, the example will tell us nothing.

If we put either of them up against a hobgoblin, it's not going to tell us which is superior; the hobgoblin dies whichever caster is there.

The example opponent has to be one that won't immediately win regardless of which caster is present, and that won't immediately lose regardless of which caster is present. It needs to be in a middle range where a difference becomes apparent between the two casters.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Really? I actually thought Twin was, but looks like your right. It is fairly basic though--I've never seen anyone call Twin Spell "Power Creep".

And there's still the issue of applying it to a spell with neither Target nor Area entry...

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And there's still the issue of applying it to a spell with neither Target nor Area entry...

-Hyp.

I know that's a contention, which is one of the two reasons I prefer Energy Admixture. It's 100% Smurf-Tested, Mother-Approved for Orbs And if anything, it is generally considered less useful than Twin.

For Notmousse, I guess I should also point out that both Twin and Energy Admixture appear in Complete Arcane, and if you aren't using Complete Arcane, you don't even have the Orb spells. Thus, I consider my (Quicken, Maximise, Energy Admixture, 7 unspent feats) build perfectly reasonable for an Orb build--it doesn't use any books at all other than those required to make an Orb caster.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Well, I am certainly convinced the No SR thing is bogus. As a matter of fact, I'm so convinced, I'm going to suggest to the DM that he put SR on the orb spells, to my character's detriment, but to better the game imho.
Thank you Rystil, Karinsdad and others for making this plain, over and over. I think I agreed with you about 9 pages ago.

Seconded

 

[FireLance]

Well, I am certainly convinced the No SR thing is bogus. As a matter of fact, I'm so convinced, I'm going to suggest to the DM that he put SR on the orb spells, to my character's detriment, but to better the game imho.

Actually, I think the No SR thing is what makes these spells distinctive, and adds to the variety of effects in the game. I personally would keep it, and if I find that the orb spells are too effective for my taste (which I do recognize will vary from person to person), I'd either reduce the damage dice and/or dice cap, or substitute a saving throw for the ranged attack roll.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, I think the No SR thing is what makes these spells distinctive, and adds to the variety of effects in the game. I personally would keep it, and if I find that the orb spells are too effective for my taste (which I do recognize will vary from person to person), I'd either reduce the damage dice and/or dice cap, or substitute a saving throw for the ranged attack roll.

A save negates would be better than nothing (though it would weaken them even more than just allowing SR), but all in all, you can keep them super-strong but not game-destructive if you just add SR back in (and I'd suggest swapping them to Evocation for flavour, but it isn't necessary). It's a simple fix, and it keeps with the general standard of making the only SR-penetrating spells low damage or damage over time rather than Blitzkreig blasts like an Evoker would want to do.