No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Notmousse]

Sounds to me like more obfuscation, as though the dragon versus the conjurer is the argument, and not the balance of the orbs.

The example given by the anti-orb side was 15th level mages killing a dragon 9 CR above them. I see no reason why in this already obscenely prejudicial example that the dragon be an oversized pinata.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Sounds to me like more obfuscation, as though the dragon versus the conjurer is the argument, and not the balance of the orbs.

The orbs aren't balanced relative to other damaging spells, they destroy the evocation school's reason for being, they are too powerful golem-killers, and they powergame around a common defense by using the most tenuous of game logic ("No, it's not magical lightning, it's a perfectly natural ball of lava/liquid hydrogen/vibrating air/pure electrons that is brought into existence through magic"). Same holds true for Blast of Flame and Arc of Lightning. Conjurers were already very powerful without these spells.

But the conversation seems to have shifted to dragons.

 

[Twowolves]

The example given by the anti-orb side was 15th level mages killing a dragon 9 CR above them. I REFUSE to see no ANY reason why in this already obscenely prejudicial example that the dragon be an oversized pinata.

There, fixed it for you.

 

[Notmousse]

Crush is fairly easily thwarted by Contingency-Polymorph (Colossal dragon can't crush Huge opponents), Contingency-DimDoor, or Projected Image, just looking at core spells.

Polymorph: I'll skip how you word this contingency for now and get to the part where you're already pinned, and are still treated as grappled no matter what your size changes to.

Dimension Door: Unless you already know the layout of the dragon's lair this one's dangerous as you could be shunted 100' off target, or at worst simply take an extra 4d6 damage.

Projected Image: Ok, you got me. I can't even fathom how this would beat a dragon crushing a mage.

 

[Twowolves]

Polymorph: I'll skip how you word this contingency for now and get to the part where you're already pinned, and are still treated as grappled no matter what your size changes to.

Ok fine, change it to Contingency: Gaseous Form. Or Contingency: Blink. Or Contingency: Just-About-Any-Of-A-Dozen-Other-Spells.

Dimension Door: Unless you already know the layout of the dragon's lair this one's dangerous as you could be shunted 100' off target, or at worst simply take an extra 4d6 damage.

Yeah, no one ever used Scrying, Arcane Eye, Divination, or Contact Other Plane before going into a dragon's lair. No way they'd be able to.... Dimension Door 30' to one side and not die instantly!

Projected Image: Ok, you got me. I can't even fathom how this would beat a dragon crushing a mage.

Easy, you are casting through the Projected Image. Dragon flies down and crushes.... an illusion.

In any case, you still are ignoring the balance of the orb spells and instead finding more and more convoluted ways to defend a dragon.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Polymorph: I'll skip how you word this contingency for now and get to the part where you're already pinned, and are still treated as grappled no matter what your size changes to.

Quick and sloppy: "When any dragon is 30' above me or less, Polymorph me into an athach." Or just begin the fight at Huge size. The size thwarting Crush makes Polymorph an essential tool when fighting dragons -- though unfortunately the spell itself is so wonky.

Dimension Door: Unless you already know the layout of the dragon's lair this one's dangerous as you could be shunted 100' off target, or at worst simply take an extra 4d6 damage.

Make it a short jump. Then there is CERTAINLY going to be an open location within 100', since the dragon had to have jumped from somewhere. So you will not remain in your current spot and take 4d6 damage. Though this won't work if the dragon has spent the resources to cast Forbiddance on its lair. Only an utter moron would enter a dragon's lair if it had an active Forbiddance effect.

Projected Image: Ok, you got me. I can't even fathom how this would beat a dragon crushing a mage.

Because your projected image is casting the spells, not you. If the dragon crushes the image, you can cast the spell yourself with no penalty.

You can use Limited Wish to get a Freedom of Movement effect, but that's subpar. You'll be Crushed, then move out and cast a quickened spell, then be Crushed again.

 

[Nail]

Sounds to me like more obfuscation, as though the dragon versus the conjurer is the argument, and not the balance of the orbs.

Bingo.

 

[Nail]

BTW: Without including most dragons, the average touch AC is 11 (in 3.5e MM).

Just so you know.

IOW: Touch ACs suck.

 

[IanB]

"BTW: Without including most dragons, the average touch AC is 11 (in 3.5e MM).

Just so you know.

IOW: Touch ACs suck."

And what percentage of primary casters invest in precise shot? In many circumstances you pretty much have to assume that touch ACs vs. ranged attacks are going to be 4 or 8 higher than listed.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

To use another example: the SR-ignoring makes it fairly easy for a 5th-level orb conjurer to kill a CR 13 iron golem. This problem goes back to the change to Acid Arrow in 3.5 (which will also let a caster kill a much-higher-CR golem) and the change to golem's magic immunity. Not sure if the interaction of these two changes was considered thoroughly. The orb spells exacerbate the problem by introducing new damage types (force and sonic being the worst offenders) to the no-SR energy-damage club. Demons and devils can shrug off Acid Arrow but not Lesser Orb of Sound.

The SR-ignoring makes the orb spells killer against monsters whose main defense is SR. Dragons are a poor example, as their SR is typically CR +6 to CR +8, so not all that potent. Mind flayer's SR is CR +17, Rakshasa is CR +17, and most devils are CR +12. These monsters should be highly resistant to direct spell attacks from PCs.