No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Nail]

And what percentage of primary casters invest in precise shot? In many circumstances you pretty much have to assume that touch ACs vs. ranged attacks are going to be 4 or 8 higher than listed.

Are you claiming that Touch ACs don't, in fact, "suck"?

 

[Henry]

There, fixed it for you.

Guys, I issued a warning a while back, and apparently it's gotten lost in the thread's growth, so I'll remind people: Let's lay off the snarky comments, please. If people can't, then I'll have to either give anyone who can't listen a temporary forum vacation, or close the thread if enough people can't hear.

Thanks.

 

[IanB]

Are you claiming that Touch ACs don't, in fact, "suck"?

Compared to the ranged touch attack bonus of a typical primary caster, no, they don't really suck. Even a level 20 wizard with a dex of 18 will miss a touch AC of 19 20% of the time. (Your average AC of 11, with cover and melee factored in.)

Granted, a warmage who has specialized in ranged feats, has access to the 'best' orb at any given time, and can do all sorts of tricks with sudden metamagic, etc., is going to be a problem a lot of the time. So, we come to the classic chicken/egg dilemma: which is broken, the warmage or the orbs?

I'm pretty willing to accept that orb of force is out of line. (And Easy Metamagic is right out.) I'm really not sure about the others, still. With normal wizard builds they don't seem that bad to me, and they're *certainly* not out of line in a game where stuff like Tome of Battle is allowed.

 

[Nail]

Compared to the ranged touch attack bonus of a typical primary caster, no, they don't really suck. Even a level 20 wizard with a dex of 18 will miss a touch AC of 19 20% of the time. (Your average AC of 11, with cover and melee factored in.)

So:

"If the target has cover, and if the target is engaged in melee, a Touch spell has a chance to miss its target."

Do I have that right?

Granted, a warmage who has specialized in ranged feats, has access to the 'best' orb at any given time, and can do all sorts of tricks with sudden metamagic, etc., is going to be a problem a lot of the time. So, we come to the classic chicken/egg dilemma: which is broken, the warmage or the orbs?

(Nods) I'm currently DMing a warmage, and the game-balance there is...interesting.

But let's keep this on topic: Orbs are overpowered. You don't need to be a specific class (say, a warmage), or attack a specific creature (say, a dragon) to see the effect. Touch attack, no save, no SR, excellent single-target damage.

 

[borc killer]

I'm pretty willing to accept that orb of force is out of line. (And Easy Metamagic is right out.) I'm really not sure about the others, still.

That is what I am doing for now. OoF is now Evocation with SR. The others are 'as is' until further notice in my campaign.

But still thinking about making a poll... would to see real numbers on how many people feel the same.

 

[Diirk]

And what percentage of primary casters invest in precise shot? In many circumstances you pretty much have to assume that touch ACs vs. ranged attacks are going to be 4 or 8 higher than listed.

Its pretty common in games I play in for the wizard to invest in precise/point blank shot. Besides orbs, there's plenty of other rays and ranged touch spells (eg. Ray of Enfeeblement, which is a great debuff for melee brutes) that make it worthwhile. Cover isn't so much an issue because you can usually position to avoid it.

Ps. I'm willing to bet you lose a lot less damage to missing ranged touches than you would to SR and successful reflex saves.

 

[IanB]

So:

"If the target has cover, and if the target is engaged in melee, a Touch spell has a chance to miss its target."

Do I have that right?

At lower levels you don't even really need the cover/melee penalty. I typically don't expect a ranged touch attack bonus above BAB+2 for your average wizard/sorcerer. In my experience those classes tend to throw most/all of their ability score resources into their casting stat and constitution. Dex is 3rd on the priority list and I don't often see scores over 14 unless we're talking about a 4d6 game rather than point buy, and someone rolls very well. (And in those cases people in my player group usually jump at the chance to play some class with MAD rather than a wiz/sorc.)

 

[Seeten]

Its pretty common in games I play in for the wizard to invest in precise/point blank shot. Besides orbs, there's plenty of other rays and ranged touch spells (eg. Ray of Enfeeblement, which is a great debuff for melee brutes) that make it worthwhile. Cover isn't so much an issue because you can usually position to avoid it.

Ps. I'm willing to bet you lose a lot less damage to missing ranged touches than you would to SR and successful reflex saves.

In fact, though, I'd posit that 90% of the reason for taking these feats is optimizing the orb spells, because thats how broken they are.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Fine with the +4 to touch AC for firing into melee, but would a colossal dragon really get +4 cover bonus for fighting medium opponents??

DM fiat?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Bingo.

Yep, this is exactly why the baatezu is in the details--when you get lost in arguing whether some third thing beats a fourth thing, you lose sight of the Orbs themselves.

By the way, in an aside not related to the post I quoted, I'm surprised that so many people came out against Practical/Easy Metamagic and not Arcane Thesis. It did almost nothing. Arcane Thesis is the monstrosity feat in the killer Connie build--those who said you're banning Practical/Easy Metamagic should be sure to ban Arcane Thesis as well (I know I don't allow it in its current PHII form).