No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Hypersmurf]

AMF is an emanation, so you can definitely widen it.

You can, but strictly, it's a useless exercise.

"You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%."

AMF has a range of 10 feet, and an area of 10' radius emanation.

Widened AMF has a range of 10 feet, and an area of 20' radius emanation.

And "If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted."

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Good catch. I'd personally allow it to stretch all the way out, since it's effectively a 9th level spell effect.

 

[Wish]

The reasoning behind pitting foes with SR against an Evoker and a Conjurer is that foes without SR will not show why Orbs should remain "SR: no".

So, your point is that Orb spells do exactly what they are supposed to do - deliver damage to single targets with SR.

The elemental example shows that AoE spells do exactly what they are supposed to do - deliver damage to multiple targets, especially those with limited specific defenses (such as SR or evasion).

You haven't shown why Orb spells should be SR: yes, you've shown that they do damage to foes with SR (which really is so obvious that it shouldn't merit discussion). You have further assumed that foes with SR should not take damage from spells (and indeed they don't from most spells). It's this assumption that lets you argue that Orb spells should be SR: yes, but I reject that assumption.

SR is just one of many defenses a creature can have. There's no reason to believe it should be proof against everything a spellcaster can do. And Orb spells are just one of many options a spellcaster can have to counter the defenses of a given foe. Sometimes they will be the more effective option for dealing damage (as, for example, in the case of the cornugon). Sometimes they will not be nearly as effective as area of effect spells (as in the case of the elementals whose primary defenses are DR/- and large hp totals - 1368 hp worth of elementals will take a while at 90hp/shot).

 

[Felix]

It would require a combination of those effects to make them broken.

Sure, but these conditions arn't exactly uncommon. And you only need a little of each, or a lot of one, to make Orbs outshine the entire direct-damage Evocation subschool.

Again for you watching at home: this is only the game-balance argument. I consider the Flavor argument damning enough for my taste, and the Conjuration (Creation) Rules argument makes the wording of these spells as written look silly.

 

[Felix]

So, your point is that Orb spells do exactly what they are supposed to do - deliver damage to single targets with SR.

They'll do that anyway because it'll be more likely for the Orb caster to hit his touch attack than for the creature to fail the reflex save, assuming both pass the SR check.

 

[James McMurray]

Sure, but these conditions arn't exactly uncommon. And you only need a little of each, or a lot of one, to make Orbs outshine the entire direct-damage Evocation subschool.

Which is why I've said many times that balance is campaign specific. The samples taken from Age of Worms and Shackled City show that even in official WotC products, campaign style plays a major role. How much you need of each is completely unarguable because it boils dopwn to personal opinion.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The elemental example shows that AoE spells do exactly what they are supposed to do - deliver damage to multiple targets, especially those with limited specific defenses (such as SR or evasion).

Other conjuration spells added in Complete Arcane ignore SR AND are area-energy-damage spells. Blast of Flame, Arc of Lightning, and Virtolic Sphere. So it isn't the case that conjurers can just handle single opponents and evokers handle groups -- Complete Arcane gave conjurers a huge arsenal of energy-damage spells, far beyond the Acid Arrow they had before. Having played a druid for 19 levels, I can say that summoning was already an extremely potent ability, and I don't understand why the authors thought that conjurers needed more power. I don't know if there are more such spells in Spell Compendium.

Interestingly, Ice Knife and Hail of Stone are instantaneous creation conjurations from Complete Arcane that do NOT bypass SR. I have no idea why this is.

SR is just one of many defenses a creature can have. There's no reason to believe it should be proof against everything a spellcaster can do.

That was never the case. There were always many things a caster could do when faced with a high-SR opponent.

 

[Felix]

Which is why I've said many times that balance is campaign specific. The samples taken from Age of Worms and Shackled City show that even in official WotC products, campaign style plays a major role. How much you need of each is completely unarguable because it boils dopwn to personal opinion.

It may be campaign specific, but the examples show how Orbs can easily turn into must-have spells because of the damage potential they have against opponents that are commonly, well, common; they'll do the same when opponents are fewer, as there are ~60% of encounters with 3 or less opponents in the Age of Worms (or was it Shackled City?) Adventure Path.

With that serving as baseline, it won't take much to push Orbs into broken territory, and quite a bit of management to ensure they don't. A DM shouldn't have to put this much design thought into a direct damage spell.

 

[James McMurray]

I don't disagree that they can be powerful in the right scenarios. I do disagree that it requires a lot of management to make them not be that way. I have never modified an adventure with the orbs in mind, and they haven't been too powerful in my games. As far as I know none of the people I've played under have modified adventures with orbs in mind, and they haven't been too powerful in those games either. No thought was required, merely continuin down the same path my group has been on for years.

 

[IanB]

I think I will specifically encourage one of my players to try out the warmage in my upcoming AoW game, as I'm now quite curious about how it will stand up against a 'standard' environment.